Is the Banshee Bow over powered? (or Bull Helm)

[Chicka-Maria]

As I said before, No matter what build you use, the banshee bow will be terribly expensive compared to the other items, terranite arrows are a pain in the ass to get thats why not everybody uses them to go out and collect drops with them. The terranite ore is expensive and it takes hours on end to collect terranite ore from the mine not including the PVP aspect of the mind that holds the players back from farming them. You spend a Chocolate Cupcake ton of GP on arrows, a Chocolate Cupcake ton of GP on healing items which need replacing once every 20 minutes, and the bow does a crap load of damage on the player not including the damage the monsters do on them. Then there's costs of traveling or time traveling back to your destination. These are most aspects the helmet doesn't have to bring the player down lol the items *are* balanced the only reason why people don't think so now is because these items do bring balance, compared to before. Lightening destroyed monsters before with 700+ damage i don't see why that needs to be increased or something to try to unbalance it again. Yeah the robe is less expensive then the new items but that's because the new items SHOW more balance while the robe is the same balance as it was before due to large amount of attack.

When there is something new in this discussion to discuss I'll show more attention to it. The balance might not seem so because its not what it used to but these are 90+ items and the consequences of using a good powered item are high to make up for it.

regards,

[veryape]

Why is this still going on?

Let's make this really simple:

1. Price does not affect usefulness/effectiveness of a think - eye patches, scarab armlets, hints and bottles of sand could all stand as proof. People want shiny and cool stuff, the banshee looks awesome.

Related to this, some people that has not used a banshee might think that it is actually a lot more powerful than it really is. They do not understand the cost constant healing and that using potions are quite expensive in the long run. (Think about the "cheating mages are overpowered"-debate that was before, sure they do much damage. However it takes some effort to get all the ores etc you need.) IE they are perceived as being better than they really are - people don't see the defence penalties and hp penalties, they just see the crits.

2. I would also reject the notion of it being a experience machine people thinks that it is. You have to think about exp/time, and not exp/min but exp/day. Sure while active they outgun mages and warriors. However, again - the economy thing: they must get the resources to buy healing, arrows, pots. This takes away play time from the gy, yeti caves and candor. I think that if you only have one char in game a rager might actually be the best build to be able to level fast.


Bottom line - I've used all the illia rewards for quite some time and i would not say that one is far better than any other. All the items are epic in their own right, the lazurite will help you make 7 instead of 6 iron powders etc.. If i had to give all my awards away except one i would probably keep the bull helmet or the lazurite robe.

Try living as a banshee for a while in game, a short 10 minute rush on the test server won't give you the whole picture.

[o11c]

The problem is not their balance compared to each other, but their balance compared to the rest of the game.

Any extreme number breaks balance, and all of the rewards give extreme numbers.

That said, the *first* set of extreme numbers that will be fixed will be when we nerf armor (and reduce mob damage to follow).

[Hello=)]

As I said before, No matter what build you use, the banshee bow will be terribly expensive compared to the other items, terranite arrows are a pain in the ass to get thats why not everybody uses them to go out and collect drops with them.

Right. But this grants expensive but working "turbo boost" other classes do not have. That what makes gameplay seriously unbalanced at noticeable points like "events". And I think o11c haves some valid point about extreme numbers - right now it looks really crazy in some cases. Though as for armor - hey, o11c, looks like both helmet and bow are crits-inclined and armor makes little difference here, no? And reducing monsters damage is not good idea IMO: they should be really dangerous for common setups. If process is easily controllable and predictable, bots would swarm in numbers. Illia items changes are extreme but promote "unsafe" gamaplay style with extreme setups to have good rewards. This is proabably very unpleasant surprise for bots who either have to resort to die-hard tanked setups and lose to alive players all the time or have to deal with frequent fails and deaths, since bots are utterly bad in edge cases, battle logic and making right decisions at right times. In general "extreme" game designs tend to make botting quite pointless thing (since I never seen a good battle AI capable of handling edge cases).

The terranite ore is expensive and it takes hours on end to collect terranite ore from the mine not including the PVP aspect of the mind that holds the players back from farming them.

More or less the same could be told about iron ore and mages. Maybe in less fatal ways. But anyway, I think all classes should have ability to deal comparable damages at comparable costs. If it's expensive - okay, let it be expensive for other classes as well. It would be completely fair. But just lack any options to counter quite common and used setups is dumb.

You spend a **** ton of GP on arrows, a **** ton of GP on healing items which need replacing once every 20 minutes, and the bow does a crap load of damage on the player not including the damage the monsters do on them.

Okay, let other classes have similar expenses for similar results. Then it would be more or less balanced - those who want to spent ton of GPs would do it. As all classes. Why archers have to be the only class which is allowed to do so? It makes gameplay weird.

but these are 90+ items and the consequences of using a good powered item are high to make up for it.

For some reason you always avoid noticing that I always refer to same levels of players and illia items only. Yes, there is big jump in stats after illia. Those without illia items are not comparable to illia winners anyhow. But I dont trying to compare these. My view is that illia items are not equally powerful and not equally rewarding. For some reason you avoid any comments on this all the time, only mumbling about costs. I gave a fairly obvious measure of players views on this: market price of items. I also did some basic measurements using ManaPlus XP monitor and so on and came to some interesting conclusions about peak abilities to deal damages in extreme setups, etc. While I would prefer someone more competent to conduct such measurements in better ways with better instrumentation, what I seen is quite enough to come to conclusion that no other class with no any powerups cant outshot speed banshee archer on potions using terranite arrows. This setup pwns all and frequently used on events, making events less pleasant place for other classes. And events are important part of gameplay and ability to outshot others on demand still counts as noticeable and unpleasant imbalance, IMO.

[Hello=)]

The problem is not their balance compared to each other, but their balance compared to the rest of the game.

IMO valid point btw. Some 2-3 banshee on potions with terra arrows can clean up candor so fast that they dont really need anyone else around maybe except 1 runner. Holy crap, it should not be that easy for certain class. Game mechanics overall not seems to be well-adopted to such amounts of damage caused by someone.

[Cassy]

Actually I see why you think like that t3st3er, even if I don't agree
We just have different opinions I guess.

I also see your point about other classes not being able to turn "Banshee-style-IMBA" with crazy costs.
It's just I think it's bad when every class gets similar options and prefer unique pros and contras.

The problem is not their balance compared to each other, but their balance compared to the rest of the game.

I'm totally with Chicka-Maria on this one.
Those weapons make level 90+ interesting.
God I was so bored of gy grinding with the usual equipment before lv90.
It makes much more fun now... sure these equipments make you stronger, but it's still totally, really *totally*, I mean t-o-t-a-l-l-y fine

[Hello=)]

Even if banshee does do a bit more damage

My very basic attempts to evaluate situation lead me to conclusion that some existing extreme banshee setups could outshot others up to a degree where all competition vanishes and outcome always clear. Though I would prefer devs to measure this in some more exact ways in some well-instrumented manner if they could do that, evaluating common and extreme setups. But overall impression I got is like this: other classes have really nothing to counter slicer-style setups in their "turbo-mode" aka potions + terra arrows.

then the bullhelmet i dont see players with the bull helmet spending more money like the archers are with terranite arrows as you assume theyre using. Terranite arrows are expensive as hell,

It's true that warriors enjoy by free attacks. Though aggressive warrior setups optimized to damage instead of def would require heals so its not completely free of charge. Then, maybe, let all classes have some expensive powerups to deal more or less the same damages at the same price then? Else it allows bansheers to outshot others on events, etc. Which makes it unfair and unpleasant enough to my taste. And I would also like to see some instrumented measurements and some stats to see, say, how chances of various classes compare, say, for kill GM event. But my guess is like this: chances would be like this: extreme bansheers > warriors > mages.

along with the items to make it if you dont want to spend hours in the terranite cave to get ore. You keep putting aside the fact there is a bigger consequence of using the bow rather than the helmet.

Okay, then it would be fair if other classes would spend hours, grinding stuff for powerups if they want to use them. Though let's admit mages cant even grind well, to make it even more funny. Speed optimized warriors in extreme setups maybe could deal damage comparable to banshee, but since they have to survive direct monster hits, this would not allow to kill tough monsters, etc (=="unable to get valuable drops", this makes overaggressive setups quite pointless).

And no, it's not anyhow balanced when some class can blatantly outperform other classes at their will, should need to do so arise. Sure, nobody does grinding on slimes with terra arrows and potions, it would be a disaster. But should some event start, archers would obviously use their best equipment to gain advantage over others. Just because they can. Overall this seems to make gameplay biased in favor of banhsee archers over anyone esle. Sure, its possible to have reasonably slow banhsee setup as well. But there are different players. Many of them would stick to quite aggressive setups. For that reason, peak damage should me more or less on par to keep gameplay diverse and fair.

The items *are balanced* IMO

I feel it other ways. IMO banshee pwns all on extreme setups and other classes just denied options to make similar setups (which would do comparable damage at comparably high costs).

P.s. why there should be 2 similar threads? Maybe moderators can merge them to one?

[Crush]

P.s. why there should be 2 similar threads? Maybe moderators can merge them to one?

Done.

[o11c]

The problem is not their balance compared to each other, but their balance compared to the rest of the game.

I'm totally with Chicka-Maria on this one.
Those weapons make level 90+ interesting.
God I was so bored of gy grinding with the usual equipment before lv90.
It makes much more fun now... sure these equipments make you stronger, but it's still totally, really *totally*, I mean t-o-t-a-l-l-y fine

It's all fun and games to *you*. It's horrible for people *without* them. The drop formula was bad *before*, but now it's practically impossible for Ordinary Players to get any drops.

I do not want TMW to be a game of elitist players.

[bell chick]

The problem is not their balance compared to each other, but their balance compared to the rest of the game.

I'm totally with Chicka-Maria on this one.
Those weapons make level 90+ interesting.
God I was so bored of gy grinding with the usual equipment before lv90.
It makes much more fun now... sure these equipments make you stronger, but it's still totally, really *totally*, I mean t-o-t-a-l-l-y fine

It's all fun and games to *you*. It's horrible for people *without* them. The drop formula was bad *before*, but now it's practically impossible for Ordinary Players to get any drops.

I do not want TMW to be a game of elitist players.

the dedicated players deserve a leg up otherwise why be dedicated. also dedicated players deserve a little extra conveniences in getting drops as it takes more items to maintain higher level players illia items or not. illia items are endgame items and should be more powerful than say the forest bow that's often obtained before level 20. if you cant have cool stuff in higher levels then there's no point in reaching higher levels. like say archers i believe reach their top strength at level 84 and same for mages. illia items create a reason to play past those levels

[o11c]

We had plenty of high-level players before they were released. And now there is a demotivation for new players.

[bell chick]

We had plenty of high-level players before they were released. And now there is a demotivation for new players.

difference is high level players wouldnt play on high level characters in old game play. theyd either quit at 99 or make a new character because it completely becomes aparant for archer and mages max strength is reached early and a level 85 archer is just as strong as a level 99 archer. before illia there were no perks other than bragging rights for higher levels

[edit] i checked it. its level 85 to reach max dex and agi for an archer not 84 but i was close

[edit] also players like cassy and me came into the game either right before or sometime after for illia items and both had to climb up wile these items were used. its really sensationalism that newbies anct climb up with the new items around. cassy and myself seemed to have no trouble

[Hello=)]

We had plenty of high-level players before they were released. And now there is a demotivation for new players.

On other hand it could serve as motivation to level to 90+ and get these items . And in fact, illia quest IMO is The Most Epic TMW Quest of All Times (I admit it, even if it completely suxx for mages). So its twice as worth to level to 90 than before .

And btw, to my taste TMW haves a bad record on having quite many items which are expensive/challenging to get and then fail to provide any noticeable improvement. Bad efforts to results ratio could make RPG a really disappointing thing. So weak bonuses of many items were always an issue (ok, except armor maybe, but OTOH making the most expensive and heavy armor leads to only marginal improvements, which makes efforts and resources waste quite sad overall). Illia items are both bless and curse at the same time in this regard .

[WildX]

the dedicated players deserve a leg up otherwise why be dedicated. also dedicated players deserve a little extra conveniences in getting drops as it takes more items to maintain higher level players illia items or not. illia items are endgame items and should be more powerful than say the forest bow that's often obtained before level 20. if you cant have cool stuff in higher levels then there's no point in reaching higher levels. like say archers i believe reach their top strength at level 84 and same for mages. illia items create a reason to play past those levels

Then why not make the Banshee Bow even harder to obtain and give players a less-awesome bow of the same level as the Banshee? That way dedicated 90+ players can get a super awesome bow with some hard work and normal/casual players can have a bow that isn't an old under-powered lvl 40 bow.
If the Banshee Bow was *very* hard to obtain that would kind of justify why it's so powerful (though it may still need to be balanced a bit).

[bell chick]

the dedicated players deserve a leg up otherwise why be dedicated. also dedicated players deserve a little extra conveniences in getting drops as it takes more items to maintain higher level players illia items or not. illia items are endgame items and should be more powerful than say the forest bow that's often obtained before level 20. if you cant have cool stuff in higher levels then there's no point in reaching higher levels. like say archers i believe reach their top strength at level 84 and same for mages. illia items create a reason to play past those levels

Then why not make the Banshee Bow even harder to obtain and give players a less-awesome bow of the same level as the Banshee? That way dedicated 90+ players can get a super awesome bow with some hard work and normal/casual players can have a bow that isn't an old under-powered lvl 40 bow.
If the Banshee Bow was *very* hard to obtain that would kind of justify why it's so powerful (though it may still need to be balanced a bit).

illia is very hard. it took almost 4 months to see more than 12 winners in the game. like any quest given enough time people figure out the tricks but illia is by far harder than any other quest tmw has ever seen