Disabling that #ingrav kills you while #kaflosh is active?

[Cassy]

[Edit: creating a poll]

I'd like to open a little discussion about this:

In less then 10 minutes playing in the graveyard today I saw 4 mages accidently killing themselves because a player enjoys casting #kaflosh + trollface smiley.
Personally I think this is really bad because:

• you shouldn't be able to kill/hurt someone that easily with pvp disabled
• it's actually a sort of harassment, but unluckily in a legal way
• it really frustrates mages, also leading to heavy insults
• we don't have a real alternative to #ingrav
• we don't have much other places to level

But also personally I was never killed this way.

So is this a real problem?
Does this happen often?
Should we consider disabling that #ingrav kills you while #kaflosh is active or thinking about changing it another way?

I'd be happy to get some opinions from players (and devs).

Thanks

[WildX]

Here's a random list of ideas related to this topic. KABOOM.

• When you cast ingrav on a mob under the rain it should do more damage.
• Kaflosh should have a small chance of "drowning" the caster, doing damage to them without summoning any rain.
• Casting ingrav under the rain should have a chance of damaging the caster (no insta-death).
• There should be a spell that protects from the rain in a small area around the caster.
• There should be another spell to stop the rain entirely, it's very mana-expensive and requires an empty bottle, that becomes full after the spell is cast.
• Rain should slightly reduce walk speed for players with low agility or wearing cloth armour.
• Kaflosh should have a long cooldown to avoid people casting continuous rain.

[Saint Tropez]

Hi

We already saw that with the dark magic.
Allow to player use something and after saying that the player must take care about what they do.

There is several way to play, let ppl play like they want.

The real point is why we dont have another spell to use instead #ingrav when we are in this kind of situation?

If ppl want to summon rain why they cant do it?
Coz you want to cast #ingrav?

So ppl start to say my way of playing is better than yours, plz do like i do or go away??
wtf???

I really understand your point saying when ppl use #kaflosh over the gy its impossible for the mage to play and have fun.
Its also the case for the guy who launch the #kaflosh spell even if he use this spell to troll ppl in the gy.

The better way is to have others spells.
Someone try to troll with #kaflosh?? Fine i use this other spell who give good result.

Forbiden, avoid...in this way you can start to close the game.


Have a nice day.




And the dark path will rule the manaworld and finally we shall live in peace...

[Cassy]

Allow to player use something and after saying that the player must take care about what they do.
[...]
Forbiden, avoid...in this way you can start to close the game.

Hmm... is there maybe a little misunderstanding?
I really didn't suggest to change the rules saying that #kaflosh is forbidden or something like that.
That would very stupid, I'm totally on your side with this.
In my opinion this is a mistake from developer's side (who ever created this spell) and the spells #kaflosh and/or #ingrav should be changed.

But well, this is just my opinion

[Saint Tropez]

A consequence of my previous post....???
I dont put it in the court coz i dont care about this.
coz idiots are still idiot even if they eat a dictionnary.

But these points are interesting.

[*]it's actually a sort of harassment, but unluckily in a legal way
[*]it really frustrates mages, also leading to heavy insults
...

Description of the situation.

In gy, NitayandaRama, great player and high skilled mage for the illia quest, and one of his friend start to play with me.
In first Nitay dont heal me, he was mage, he heal everybodies around in the gy but not me. So its obvious he have something against me. So i use my food. np.
Just before he run after me calling me several times : coward, coz i dont hit a Jack o (wtf??).
seriously im lv90 and banshee user, really...must i do what the others players want??
So its obvious he wanted something like insulting him idk why.
And finally he comes with a friend of him joking on me (with the emot) and telling me they can betsanc me.
What can i do? Ok do it...it was that i said.
Legas his friend did it. Np, i relog to remove the spell... they continue on their way...

Unfortunately i was not enough clear at this moment to record all the discussion.
so you have the end of the discussion...on screenshot.
And i dont even understand the question from nitayandarama about his friend.
And he said im a foe...ennemy of what? of who???

And like you can see Nitayandarama was aware of this topic when he said no #kaflosh revenge.
And if not, intentionnally he said to not use #kaflosh on him for me to do it.
In what purpose...only him can know. And i really dont care about what he think.

So, there is two things now.
or this topic is open to try to remove or avoid the spell #kaflosh, like this some mage can come in gy and grab all the exp on the other players back.
And of course my reply is not good.
or some bunch of retarded see themself in the description and they try to give to me a lesson. And its not the first time...
Guys, you waste your time...

Like i already said in several post, some player are just awesome, fantastic, neats, wonderful....but in fact they are just some bunch of as**ole.
They help a lot, saying a lot of sweet things and they act like suc**rs ...sometimes??

Finally all of this to ask:
there is #kaflosh against #ingrav user.
and there is #betsanc against banshee and bull user.
So what can i do when a retarded come and betsanc me...when i use my bull helmet or my banshee bow???
hmmm....nothing

But next time be sure i will post in court, coz guys you start to really boring me, all awesome that you are trying to give lesson of life to the others. Start by yourself.

[Frost]

This doesn't directly address the kaflosh vs. ingrav thing, but I have found a few ways to grief other players. I can sometimes "make a deal" with people once they see I can cause them trouble in return.

Griefing
Archer: betsanc them. Spikes are cheap. If they log out and back in, they risk getting eaten by nearby monsters. If you're careful, you can also drag monsters all around them so they die.
Warrior: betsanc them. This is more effective against speed warriors than raging, but my level 95 raging warrior has his rate of damage cut to maybe 2/3 by the spell.
Mage: kaflosh, or drown them in monsters.

Defending
Archer: plan where another character will be when you reappear, so you aren't alone with the monsters.
Warrior: Threaten to drop monsters on your opponent. Mages don't use Speed skill to move. Or just ignore betsanc. Or run on top of your opponent so that when you die, he is doomed.
Mage: #itenplz monsters to throw off the archer's rhythm. Use #flar during #kaflosh, and throw #frillyar to get XP, screw with monster aggro, and maybe lag other players.

Also, remember that although an archer can cast magic, their spells are seldom very powerful or long. For example, as a warrior, I ignore betsanc from archers.

Of course, it's still hard to "return the insult" to a character that's 10 levels higher than yours, and tanked mages are hard to mess with. I don't pretend this solves all situations, but maybe it will help.

[Saint Tropez]

Wow

I did not even think about this kind of stuff
My mind is not really designed to find and use them.
So ...
I can not use them coz I do not want to justify the behavior of this kind of players.
They do it, griefing ppl, ppl are angry and sometimes they stop.
But if you do the same as they do, eventually, they are comfortable coz you have justify their path.
And their behavior becomes rules and they play happily griefing ppl "legaly".

So even if everything you say are wonderful countermeasure, I dont feel so weak on me to use them.
Of course i just speak on my behalf.

But thx a lot Frost to have find them and give them to the more weak.


Do you know the last fashion? The last trick they use?? is to kill a mob at 3/4, if possible a bunch of monsters, and they bring them on you, and they run hide themself.
- In the worst case you must kill all the monsters they bring, and you win 800-1000 exp by monster, while they win double exp, 6000-15000 exp, coz you hit their targets.
- In the best case you die and they have to deal with their monsters, or they must wait another simple mind to kill their monster to win the jackpot.

You can find them easily in the gy, they are ppl who play alone (tank warrior, banshee user...). they dont like when you hit the bunch of monster they have around them and you see them only when they running toward you asking for healing, help or just nothing waiting you kill the monsters they bring with them.

They have wonderful mind isn't it?

[...]
Forbiden, avoid...in this way you can start to close the game.

Hmm... is there maybe a little misunderstanding?
[...] this is a mistake from developer's side (who ever created this spell) and the spells #kaflosh and/or #ingrav should be changed.

This is not a misunderstanding, sorry Cassy i wasnt enough clear.
When you avoid something its not here anymore.
When you forbidden something its not here anymore.
When you change something, this thing is not here anymore, something else is here eventually with the same name, but its not the previous thing.
its what i means by --> ... <-- etc. (and the rest; and so forth)
You can see it? that change equals forbidden?
And in another way if you dont change you will be never free.
The point to find freedom or void is where your intention, you will is.
So... what is the "real" goal of this thread?


Have a nice day

And the dark path will rule the manaworld and finally we shall live in peace...

[Hello=)]

Mage: #itenplz monsters to throw off the archer's rhythm. Use #flar during #kaflosh, and throw #frillyar to get XP, screw with monster aggro, and maybe lag other players.

I used another tactic: if mage haves armor, its okay to betsanc self, take a load of fallens (or some jack) on your tail, stabilize state of things, unequip armor, throw some bolts to deal with stuff you've got. Then... good luck to those who helps mage to die. Since caster cant wear really good armor, fallens would be glad to check if caster can run away fast enough. Often it happens to be not a case . Similar fate has been for one pranker who attempted to interfere with "skulls trick" by itenplz'ng all stuff to self which inherently corrupts all scheme which is hard to set up and not really safe for players. I just stopped heals and let guy to get what he wants: 2 skulls biting him. Needless to say spellcasters usually do not have defence to withstand it for a while. The result? Offender died due to very own actions and got happy alt-z smiles over his dead body . That's a nice way to deal with trolls and prankers if they go a bit too far with annoyances .

P.S. and one hint to Saint Tropez who seems to think its okay to be rough with players on slightest disagreement. If you annoy some old time players or just enough people around, each player can do very minor annoyance to you, well below of radars to apply punishments by GMs, etc. However when half of players in game would do it, overall "climate" would be quite unpleasant. So its really wise to think twice on how you deal with others. Especially if you're so easily hurted.

[wushin]

The first problem is how the damage is called in the #Ingrav spell.
The second problem is no counter for #kaflosh.

I'd propose we change the Ingrav damage to feedback damage now that magic can properly handle elemental damage. So if Ingrav in Rainstorm part of the damage is resisted by enemy and part of the damage is given to the player. Currently it does an itemheal -(spell damage) which will insta-kill just about any mage as itemheal is Direct damage not magical so Def & Vit help not MDef and Int. At the same time release a "heatwave" or "Dry Spell" spell that evaporates the rain.

UPDATE: Fix is partly done. https://github.com/themanaworld/tmwa-se ... ta/pull/40

(NOTE: Now that elemental resistance is properly calculated in all forms of combat, shell spells for resistance to various elements could be developed)
((NOTE NOTE: A silence spell would be fun too.))

[SriNitayanda]

Is it really neccesary?

In less then 10 minutes playing in the graveyard today I saw 4 mages accidently killing themselves because a player enjoys casting #kaflosh + trollface smiley.

I think one of the mages you saw getting killed was me... did i complain? did the other mages complain?
Betsanc and Kaflosh are what? 3 years in the game, probably betsanc trolling and kaflosh trolling are as old as the spells themselves. did players ever brought it up on the forums before? (i didn't dig up but as far as i remember it was never brought up last year).

Don't do something you don't want other people to do with you - neither in first place, nor in second place as a kind of revenge.

Its a ROLE playing game, some players think they are saints (tropez) and some like to play Villains (Villain).
It might be true if you are dealing with friends or people you care about IRL, i dont think it applies when you play in a community where people ROLE play. Like you enjoy helping others or whatever, some players find joy in griefing other players in game. thats why we got GM's to ensure EVERYONE have fun, so if someone's trolling get out of hand like it happened not long ago with troll, GM's can take actions.
I agree with frost and Hello=) posts, if someone trolls in certain way there are few ways to deal with it, it doesn't have to be revenge though. for example Hysoka who was also killed by kaflosh when i was killed thought i casted the spell, so he asked me to stop. you can talk to the player, you can move to another hunting area, for example: Candy Curt was being trolled repeatedly she hosted a candor to move to close area where kaflosh is ineffective. Mages got alternatives they got whole the Nivalis map filled with yetis, which are good exp and drops.
Ofc if any of the above actions are not helpful we almost always got at least 1 GM online, who can do something if trolling gets out of hand.
Is it really neccesary to keep kaflosh the way it is, i dont think also, i am just saying i dont think we need to put effort to changing it.
Same thing applies to betsanc trolling, do we really want to change the penalty of betsanc? free extra def bonus for everyone?
don't warriors got already enough def? dont banshee archers got enough other advantages?
I think betsanc is most balanced the way it is right now, being mostly a special feature for mage. i dont think a dialogue window would solve the betsanc trolling situation cause picture this: you are hunting for survival in candor suddenly a pop up window comes up and asks if you accept the betsanc, next thing you know you are dead.
I agree with you on one point we need more hunting grounds to create more alternatives for everyone, i am sure it will bring trolling level down.

Edit:
I talked with some players in game and it seems they didn't like the upcoming kaflosh change, maybe we should open a poll on this thread if players actually want this change.

I give you one name, Manacool, feel free to ask him if he can play quietly in the gy, and how many times he die in 20 min.

You know why people dont heal manacool in gy or kaflosh him? cause he kills people in terra care. i heard people did the same thing to assassin, kafloshed him in gy cause he used to kill them in terra.

[*]you shouldn't be able to kill/hurt someone that easily with pvp disabled

It might be true but, sometimes griefing people in gy is the only way people can do something after being trolled in terranite cave. unprepared players in terra got small chance against hunting mage, and all class's got small chance against prepared basnhee archer, so sometimes its their only way to pay back. Yes paying back is not neccesarily the best option but pvp is not going to be disabled in t. cave. (for a good reason)

[Shainen]

+1 to Frost's response. His strategy suggestions just makes the idea of competition in the GY that much more intriguing.

+1 to Nitay's response. I don't believe I could have said it better myself.

Cheers,

Shai

[Saint Tropez]

Don't do something you don't want other people to do with you - neither in first place, nor in second place as a kind of revenge.

Its a ROLE playing game, some players think they are saints (tropez) and some like to play Villains (Villain).

ROLE is for the class of the character you want to play.
-Mage
-Archer
-Warrior.

There is no class for
-Saint
-Vilain
-a**hole
These are behaviours.

So I have the same behavior as cassy said when she says : Don't do something you don't want other people to do with you.
I dont like to be annoying, so i dont annoy ppl, this is not being a "Saint".
From i have started this game, never, someone betsanc me or kaflosh me.
Nobody insulting me. But thanks to you everything arrive.
And you, bunch, you dont understand???

I never heard about a rough guy, playing RPG and, doing the "saint" in the game.
But the contrary is more obvious.

It might be true if you are dealing with friends or people you care about IRL, i dont think it applies when you play in a community where people ROLE play.

There is a confusion between the class of the character and the behaviour you can have using this character. And its for that Cassy is right.
And its also obvious "you" try to break this and say to ppl to have the same suspicious behaviour than "you" and your friends.
Like this nobody can say : hey what are you doing?

Like you enjoy helping others or whatever, some players find joy in griefing other players in game. thats why we got GM's to ensure EVERYONE have fun, so if someone's trolling get out of hand like it happened not long ago with troll, GM's can take actions.

it is not fun to help others, but its an interactive game (where some see competitive).
Or you help or not, its simple.
You dont have to find if....they puke a lot, if they have the right behaviour, if they say plz, ty...
You dont have to put your mind in.
You help or not and its finish.
But some believe that they are at home and brings their own rules and behaviours with them. Like griefing and trolling ppl, or suggesting a behaviour to the ppl in the game.

But I think we have already talk a lot about all of this. So plz read the right thread.
i dont want to pollute Cassy's thread.

Have a nice day

[SriNitayanda]

+1 to shainen on his post, i agree but chayenne was faster (and i didn't want to add oil to yesterday's fire)
+2 for stroking my ego always welcomed

Saint Tropez: its a topic about kaflosh and betsanc trolling cause the betsanc trolling thread was closed... i said my opinion about Kaflosh trolling, yeah i couldn't resist mentioning you.
again though you missunderstand the meaning of role:

role is a set of connected behaviours, rights, obligations, beliefs, and norms

You see it all in black and white, yeah i am evil dark Ba***** whatever. people are more complicated than this, also the role they play are more complicated than this.

Good luck seeing it all in black and white.

[Frost]

Don't do something you don't want other people to do with you - neither in first place, nor in second place as a kind of revenge.

Its a ROLE playing game, some players think they are saints (tropez) and some like to play Villains (Villain).

ROLE is for the class of the character you want to play.
-Mage
-Archer
-Warrior.

There is no class for
-Saint
-Vilain
-a**hole
These are behaviours.

You and I have fundamentally different ideas of what role-playing means. I note that your extremely narrow version excludes characters like Ginaria, Don Quixote, and Taree.

So I have the same behavior as cassy said when she says : Don't do something you don't want other people to do with you.

I've noticed that when someone has problems with a broad set of other players, many of whom are not known for personal conflicts, that often can be traced back to the style of the person in the middle of all that conflict. "Personal Insight" is a skill that develops through real experience, not from murdering innocent zombies.

[Cassy]

Just in case:

I'm not interested in taking away possibilties to take revenge to players who annoyed you.
I'm interested in taking away possibilities to make you want to take revenge, meaning less chances to annoy people in the first place

Of course this isn't possible with everything (e.g. aggravating mobs and making them attack others).

However, I'm just one person.
The most important thing is not my opinion, it's everyone's opinion out there, so please participate at the poll I will create after finishing this post (as requested/suggested by SriNitayanda ).
But please read this post as I believe there could be misunderstandings.

I think one of the mages you saw getting killed was me... did i complain? did the other mages complain?

No you didn't complain, but please imaging being in my position because just not complaining doesn't mean anything.
Not complaining does not mean everything is fine.
Maybe you were very angry but are not the person to say it? Or maybe you just weren't in the mood to do so? Maybe you thought it's pointless to complain?
There are quite some possible reasons.

Another reason why I asked to have a discussion in my first post is that I wasn't sure how those people felt in this moment.
There was only one person complaining... actually more insulting, which is a clear sign to me that something is not okay and we should talk about it.
Communication, yay!

Betsanc and Kaflosh are what? 3 years in the game, probably betsanc trolling and kaflosh trolling are as old as the spells themselves.

I understand your point, yet I have to say that something annoying being in the game for a long time is no argument to leave it in the game forever.

did players ever brought it up on the forums before? (i didn't dig up but as far as i remember it was never brought up last year).

I was talking a bit to the person who complained/instulted and as you can imagine he wasn't happy at all.
But he didn't complain on the forum.
Same goes here: Maybe he's not the person to do so? Or he's not in the mood? Maybe he thinks it's pointless to complain?
But one thing is for sure: he was/is very annoyed.

I'm just taking him as a reference here.

Don't do something you don't want other people to do with you - neither in first place, nor in second place as a kind of revenge.

It might be true if you are dealing with friends or people you care about IRL, i dont think it applies when you play in a community where people ROLE play.

If it's about people feeling well I don't see a difference between RL and a MMORPG.
I neither want to be annoyed in my private life, nor in a game where I want to have fun and/or relax.

you can move to another hunting area
[...]
I agree with you on one point we need more hunting grounds to create more alternatives for everyone, i am sure it will bring trolling level down.

Getting #kaflosh'ed at gy repeatedly only lefts one alternative: the yeti cave (Candor is no real alternative as you need enough people and money).


Sorry for cutting your post into pieces.
I hope I didn't bring the quotes out of context.



Okay, what I actually wanted to write about were the changes wushin made, written from my view (tested it on wushin's server):

• a mage casts #ingrav
• someone casts #kaflosh and it starts raining
• the mage doesn't get killed anymore, but #ingrav is out of control, meaning it randomly attacks mobs (splash, but lower damage) and hurts yourself with a damage of ~100-300 - not too much, not harmless
• the mage casts #heatwave to make the rain disappear
• it's not possible to cast #kaflosh again as long as #heatwave is active

(#heatwave has another effect: it will aggravate waterelemental mobs)

If you are now worried about how you will be able to kill mages who brought back the "stored" skulls in the graveyard or those who killed you in the terra cave:

• there won't be any skulls in the graveyard itself when wushin releases the Crypts, they will only be at places where #kaflosh doesn't work anyway
• you are still able to annoy them a bit since #ingrav will still hurt them and they will have to cast a new spell