automated clients

[Nard]

My observations so far:

-no one wants botting
-there are many clients out there with many diffent features, including ones with automation
-we can't stop people from using there own clients or modified clients
-we can't make people share the clients they use or the code written for it

So we are no further ahead than when I started this forum.

Then TMW is almost dead because players will not accept very long to be kicked for futile things by people who don't respect the rules, nor accept rules established because they are easier to decide than to take the real causes into consideration and even less that players are treated differently because they are not among the friends of some influent people.
This attitude rottens TMW by inside, along with the communication issues.
As always the childish attitude of a few will make the (huge) efforts of the others a waste. and for what? a couple of million gp, a few hats and doll clothes more than the other players? the pleasure of defeating the server and provoke GMs? The pleasure to parade in Hunrscald center with level 99 sooner than any patient idiot can achieve it?
That's really a pity! To me it looks like a chess player playing against himself and cheats.
This post made some of us laugh:
[BAN] tempo chara for botting
When I read it again I am rather sad instead.

[tmwTroLL007]

unfortunately some peaple misuse clients plain and simple. some use them in order to help them play due to carpel tunnel or hell even a quadraplegic or arthritus and cant repeatedly hit the x button. those whom have health issues are different when it comes to certain situations its more up to the player not to break the rules and the gms to catch them. i rarely see any bots anymore and many precautions have been put in place so we dont have that issue as much. there will be some whom do break the rules and some whom try to follow them to the T. as i see it as long as they awnswer in the aloted time and do not run two at once arnt breaking the rules and isnt geting ahead of anyone. ive played damn near 7 years and ive 4 lvl 99s played throgh bot stacks to bot trains bad gms to bad devs and all have been stopped. ive seen so much progress so hats off to them im glad those days are over also i get lots of time to fool around on this game since i work from home just because a guy has many alts and rares doesent mean he cheated to get it.let the gms and the devs do there job and the game will be more enjoyable so quit worrying what the other guy has maybe he really earned it and saying he cheated is spiting in his face regards.

[Nard]

Thanks for bringing a different point of view Trollie
Edit:
There are some good and very understandable points in your post. They don't apply to the regular player though. Especially, it doesn't solve the question why do some influent people forbid to others what they allow to themselves? Why do they establish and enforce rules that are not the real cause of the issues they are supposed to solve?
If someone thinks that some automation is to be allowed, even if restricted to some people, I can understand that when there are good reasons. But the things have to be clear to everyone, this is not the case at the moment.

[Freeyorp101]

Platyna once fired all the GM's and let anarchy rule, she thought the experiment went well, I did not. We had mass botting and abuse, I think we all agree that is not a game we want to play in.

What a bullshit. The only GMs I fired were Delasia and her BF.

Regards.

Indeed. It was [Bjorn] that temporarily removed all GMs a while ago, not Platyna.

Especially, it doesn't solve the question why do some influent people forbid to others what they allow to themselves? Why do they establish and enforce rules that are not the real cause of the issues they are supposed to solve?
If someone thinks that some automation is to be allowed, even if restricted to some people, I can understand that when there are good reasons. But the things have to be clear to everyone, this is not the case at the moment.

FK automation was once considered allowed for everyone, this interpretation has since been corrected and should be allowed for no one.

---Freeyorp

[tmwTroLL007]

true if you cant be responsible with the client you use you should not be useing it period if you do you are responsible for your actions nuff said.

[Nard]

FK automation was once considered allowed for everyone, this interpretation has since been corrected and should be allowed for no one.

---Freeyorp

That is what I call a clear answer. Thank you for it.

[prsm]

Platyna once fired all the GM's and let anarchy rule, she thought the experiment went well, I did not. We had mass botting and abuse, I think we all agree that is not a game we want to play in.

What a bullshit. The only GMs I fired were Delasia and her BF.

Regards.

Indeed. It was [Bjorn] that temporarily removed all GMs a while ago, not Platyna.

---Freeyorp

I was clearly wrong, and I own it. My apologies to Platyna.

[prsm]

unfortunately some peaple misuse clients plain and simple. some use them in order to help them play due to carpel tunnel or hell even a quadraplegic or arthritus and cant repeatedly hit the x button. those whom have health issues are different when it comes to certain situations its more up to the player not to break the rules and the gms to catch them. i rarely see any bots anymore and many precautions have been put in place so we dont have that issue as much. there will be some whom do break the rules and some whom try to follow them to the T. as i see it as long as they awnswer in the aloted time and do not run two at once arnt breaking the rules and isnt geting ahead of anyone. ive played damn near 7 years and ive 4 lvl 99s played throgh bot stacks to bot trains bad gms to bad devs and all have been stopped. ive seen so much progress so hats off to them im glad those days are over also i get lots of time to fool around on this game since i work from home just because a guy has many alts and rares doesent mean he cheated to get it.let the gms and the devs do there job and the game will be more enjoyable so quit worrying what the other guy has maybe he really earned it and saying he cheated is spiting in his face regards.

Prsm stands up and claps to this post!

We are responsible firstly to ourselves. I have made a personal choice to level one ctrl a at a time and that's why it took over 2 years each time I did it. That being said I don't judge others for using a different client, I do judge them when they are afk!

Glad you wrote the post,

Prsm

[sumanutizo]

I'm monumentally banned because of booting, before this I didn't even know what is booting. Some guy say to me I should write on forum to reactivate my account. I have feeling this is not right forum, but I read it all, so now I know what is it all abut and I wish to put it how it looks from my point:
I'm not some hard core gamer or comp expert, so basically I just wish to ply some game to short my time. But slowly I get addicted. It was fun, and cute. I did not go on forums and read stuff about this. I see there is option to reporte abuse, but I though it is only if someone stick to you and torture you in some way. I like solo playing, and I really not so much care abut what other player doing. Sometimes I get some quest items from someone, sometime I gave quest item to someone, few times go with some random guy on graveyard...
Once I go to some forum abut ManaShop and I try to get my self enable to sell items to ManaShop, but I probably done it wrong and I newer get answer abut it..
Until I reach lvl 68 I was archer with vitality 5 or something, so you know if your attention is not top you won't last long against almost any monster.
Some guy told me I should not use magic until I reach lvl 70 baceuse of some quest when I get magic robe. So I basucali only use #lum #inma and #manpahil and I was happy abut nearing lvl 70.
Then I think how I will probably need a lot of magot slimes, legs and iron ore when I start with magic. So I change to short range attack and use bone knife and go to Thulimstar mine to collect those. So I did this for few days. As I get bored because monster spawn very sove, and are few and are low lvl.. can you guys imagine few hours pressing x?! How that should be fun?! But I know letter it would be even more difficult and even more boring, and there is no place where you can by iron ore (on reasonable price) and same go for maggot slime and bug legs. So I get idea of putting one ball on button x on my keyboard. I use manaplus client so it automatically pick up things - i try to find how to turn it of few times because it was pushing me in monster attack range because of some stupid item. But after few minutes of this ball pressing x button game bock player and he just stay on place. So I need from time to time press arrow button. Also I usually random heal anyone in near, reading and studding while game was play it self. My idea was to collect around 100 slime and at least 20 iron ore, go reset stats and became magician. Also some times I let my younger brother ply this game - it was easy game and fun to him. He ask me to let him, and I see no harm in that.

In that time I swear I have no idea it is illegal in any way, or that I do any bad to any player.

I must admit I have some hint but I did't conect, once I played in the bat cave - also using ball press x on my keyboard, in bat cave, someone told something abut me being a bot, but I did not understand, then that person start asking me some question, so I was happy to start conversation, but that moment that person go.. So I stay with idea what is bot?

few day after i left my brother play in Thulimstar, he kill one giant cave maggot and hoping for next one, so I let him play and go out. when I come back he told me game wont ply I try, see message that I been banned. Think he do something wrong and I wrote on some forum about this, then I get explanation that I should not be away from keyboard..

and you can imagine how I feel when guy told me I should start from lvl 1.....
depresion.... that is small word.

my brother have 6 years and speak only serbian, so he have no clue what was those guys was asking him - I cannot blame him. Also I cannot remember I ewer read something about that rule, nobody warn me, nobody any thing. I feel bad, I understand now after reading this what you fighting with. This is first MMRPG I'm playing, and I'm not so much consider with other players. I have my quests, my fun and I did not wish to misuse that in any way.

So in my opinion this rule is to hard and there are two options:
1. make it clear what are rules - for example I still do not know what are other rules - and I do not know where to find it - and I play this game intensively more then 6 month, even on main page https://www.themanaworld.org/ I cannot find any tab or link to game rules or something
2. make rule apply after player been worn. If someone just tell me that something is not allowed I serenely wont do it. It is essay to follow person that been worn for few day and check on him from time to tome. Even I with computer knowledge 0 can do that in game. And as I'm by profession psychologist I can tell you cheater is a cheater and he will certainly repeat crime, so do not worry he will be caught eventually.

and please inform me where I can inform my self about other rules, from some guy (I think he banned me) I hear there are 5 rules, and now I know only for boating?
and on which forum I can ask my account stop being banned?

By the way thanks for this beautiful game, I hope from now we will only speak in the game, I do not like this forums and stuff.

[o11c]

It is impossible to begin playing the game without reading the rules.

[prsm]

I'm monumentally banned because of booting, before this I didn't even know what is booting. Some guy say to me I should write on forum to reactivate my account. I have feeling this is not right forum, but I read it all, so now I know what is it all abut and I wish to put it how it looks from my point:
I'm not some hard core gamer or comp expert, so basically I just wish to ply some game to short my time. But slowly I get addicted. It was fun, and cute. I did not go on forums and read stuff about this. I see there is option to reporte abuse, but I though it is only if someone stick to you and torture you in some way. I like solo playing, and I really not so much care abut what other player doing. Sometimes I get some quest items from someone, sometime I gave quest item to someone, few times go with some random guy on graveyard...
Once I go to some forum abut ManaShop and I try to get my self enable to sell items to ManaShop, but I probably done it wrong and I newer get answer abut it..
Until I reach lvl 68 I was archer with vitality 5 or something, so you know if your attention is not top you won't last long against almost any monster.
Some guy told me I should not use magic until I reach lvl 70 baceuse of some quest when I get magic robe. So I basucali only use #lum #inma and #manpahil and I was happy abut nearing lvl 70.
Then I think how I will probably need a lot of magot slimes, legs and iron ore when I start with magic. So I change to short range attack and use bone knife and go to Thulimstar mine to collect those. So I did this for few days. As I get bored because monster spawn very sove, and are few and are low lvl.. can you guys imagine few hours pressing x?! How that should be fun?! But I know letter it would be even more difficult and even more boring, and there is no place where you can by iron ore (on reasonable price) and same go for maggot slime and bug legs. So I get idea of putting one ball on button x on my keyboard. I use manaplus client so it automatically pick up things - i try to find how to turn it of few times because it was pushing me in monster attack range because of some stupid item. But after few minutes of this ball pressing x button game bock player and he just stay on place. So I need from time to time press arrow button. Also I usually random heal anyone in near, reading and studding while game was play it self. My idea was to collect around 100 slime and at least 20 iron ore, go reset stats and became magician. Also some times I let my younger brother ply this game - it was easy game and fun to him. He ask me to let him, and I see no harm in that.

In that time I swear I have no idea it is illegal in any way, or that I do any bad to any player.

I must admit I have some hint but I did't conect, once I played in the bat cave - also using ball press x on my keyboard, in bat cave, someone told something abut me being a bot, but I did not understand, then that person start asking me some question, so I was happy to start conversation, but that moment that person go.. So I stay with idea what is bot?

few day after i left my brother play in Thulimstar, he kill one giant cave maggot and hoping for next one, so I let him play and go out. when I come back he told me game wont ply I try, see message that I been banned. Think he do something wrong and I wrote on some forum about this, then I get explanation that I should not be away from keyboard..

and you can imagine how I feel when guy told me I should start from lvl 1.....
depresion.... that is small word.

my brother have 6 years and speak only serbian, so he have no clue what was those guys was asking him - I cannot blame him. Also I cannot remember I ewer read something about that rule, nobody warn me, nobody any thing. I feel bad, I understand now after reading this what you fighting with. This is first MMRPG I'm playing, and I'm not so much consider with other players. I have my quests, my fun and I did not wish to misuse that in any way.

So in my opinion this rule is to hard and there are two options:
1. make it clear what are rules - for example I still do not know what are other rules - and I do not know where to find it - and I play this game intensively more then 6 month, even on main page https://www.themanaworld.org/ I cannot find any tab or link to game rules or something
2. make rule apply after player been worn. If someone just tell me that something is not allowed I serenely wont do it. It is essay to follow person that been worn for few day and check on him from time to tome. Even I with computer knowledge 0 can do that in game. And as I'm by profession psychologist I can tell you cheater is a cheater and he will certainly repeat crime, so do not worry he will be caught eventually.

and please inform me where I can inform my self about other rules, from some guy (I think he banned me) I hear there are 5 rules, and now I know only for boating?
and on which forum I can ask my account stop being banned?

By the way thanks for this beautiful game, I hope from now we will only speak in the game, I do not like this forums and stuff.

If you share your account with your brother, he should know the rules. Also, you should know the rules.

If the rules are not clear to you, please ask on the forums or for a GM to clarify. This game is free to play and only has 5 rules. You can't start playing the game until you read the rules. If you choose to skip reading the rules, please don't blame the people in charge of enforcing the rules with acting out of turn. We read the rules.

[Nard]

If the rules are not clear to you, please ask on the forums or for a GM to clarify. This game is free to play and only has 5 rules. You can't start playing the game until you read the rules. If you choose to skip reading the rules, please don't blame the people in charge of enforcing the rules with acting out of turn. We read the rules.

Even if I agree with Prsm, It is the occasion to repeat some remarks I already made:
The rules should also be reminded in wiki, enlightened with suitable format, translated, with comments or examples.
Game and forum rules. are still not up to date. They are also not-so-obvious to find (they should be at the same level as How to help?: Board index , Forum rules and Game ones should be separated as they are different.

[Cassy]

I was thinking about this a bit:
IMO the rules should *only* be on the homepage and in the game itself (as they already are).
Neither the wiki nor the forum are a place for the rules - the wiki should only mention the link to the homepage where the rules are.

When there are changes you'd also only have to update two places (homepage and the script for the in-game NPC talk) instead of four (homepage, script, wiki, forum).
Not that it's much work, it's just the more places for one and the same topic you have, the more likely you forget to update one or more of them.
My favorite example is topics/pages regarding TMWC: wiki page, forum thread, forum group (and others, but here we got three pages listing TMWC members... also if we get a new GM we have to update FIVE pages, the ones I just listed plus the wiki GM page and this user group...).
Edit: 6 pages... https://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Contributors
Maintaining this is just

Anyway: What I wrote in the first paragraph plus how about this: adding a checkbox in the registration page you have to check... "☐ I accept the rules." (while "rules" links to the page on the homepage listing the rules)?


Sorry for off-topic in this thread, I'd split the discussion to a new thread but this subforum is out of my business

[Nard]

I was thinking about this a bit:
IMO the rules should *only* be on the homepage and in the game itself (as they already are).
Neither the wiki nor the forum are a place for the rules - the wiki should only mention the link to the homepage where the rules are.

When there are changes you'd also only have to update two places (homepage and the script for the in-game NPC talk) instead of four (homepage, script, wiki, forum).
Not that it's much work, it's just the more places for one and the same topic you have, the more likely you forget to update one or more of them.
My favorite example is topics/pages regarding TMWC: wiki page, forum thread, forum group (and others, but here we got three pages listing TMWC members... also if we get a new GM we have to update FIVE pages, the ones I just listed plus the wiki GM page and this user group...).
Edit: 6 pages... https://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Contributors
Maintaining this is just

Anyway: What I wrote in the first paragraph plus how about this: adding a checkbox in the registration page you have to check... "☐ I accept the rules." (while "rules" links to the page on the homepage listing the rules)?


Sorry for off-topic in this thread, I'd split the discussion to a new thread but this subforum is out of my business

Sorry to reply here too, but it is not so far from topic. I created long time ago thread about wiki development but it was mostly unused and sank into forum abysses...

The purpose of a welcome page of a site is to give a quick overview of the site and links to the main parts of the site. The actual would be better called a "News" page than a "welcome one". The links are ok though. I would agree that the game rules and game and project descriptions would be better inside the "hat" than elsewhere. But If this holds for the game rules, it should also apply, to TMWc description, member nicks and procedures, to active GMs and their nominations if not to advisors (they have a kind of official status), to activity reports which are among the first things to look to know if a project is lively.. I certainly forget other things
I had began a site map and design specifications from december 2012 to february 2013 when I was asked to be in charge of the web site; those specs and this work were dropped for the reasons we all know. All other attempts to contribute to a better web side were also killed in the egg for lack of interest.

As Wiki is a part of the web site, is at the moment the one and only collection of reference documents organized enough to make them easy to retrieve and update, with translation features. It is a better place to put them than nothing, aside with project descriptions and annual reports (that I suggested to jenalya and had began to work on when I left). This holds unless someone has short term plans to release a new version of the site. Forum rules (Forum is also a part of the website) should of course stay onthe forum, but in a better place.
Now, it is also not very difficult too, to place a reminder NPC panel entitled "Rules" which calls a "DisplayRules" function in every town or near spawning place if "you" feel the need.

And yes maintaining the wiki is sometimes boring especially when you haven't the possibility to enhance it. Thanks for the job AdminCassy.

[Cassy]

Hmm well I want to avoid talking about the whole homepage though.
Just for the rules part, they should be listed there.
Actually wondering why they aren't yet O.o
Then as i said only pointing the wiki there and adding a checkbox including link that you accept the rules while registering.

This would solve three complaints: the rules finally are on the homepage, you must accept them before you can register (ok, like o11c and prsm already said you go through the rules at the beginning of the game anyway) and the wiki page (Game Rules) finally points to source everyone would understand.