o11c, did you really ban Platyna? How does TMWC feel about?

[Enga]

There's it:

The answer is you

[Speiros02]

I heard an interesting opinion about this yesterday... something like this:

"The TMWC offers this forum to players as a communication platform between players or players-devs, players-GMs, etc. and therefore it's up to the TMWC to throw out a person who brings trouble."
(No this was not by o11c)

I think we can all agree that Platyna indeed brings trouble.

Personally I thought about this and changed my mind a little bit.
I do see a ban reason... yet I think this should have been a decision made by the whole TMWC.

I'm still not sure about it... and wondering what other people think about this.

Regardless of how people view the driver, when a person has their car hijacked, regardless of the motive of the hijackers, is it complaining or spamming when the driver is jumping up and down at the injustice? Should they be shot? Run over? What other ways can we silence them? Should we be more focussed now on the quality of the driving of the carjackers? Or should the driver be listened to?

This example is extreme, but the point is, the game WAS taken, for whatever reason, away from Platyna. If we put ourselves in her shoes we'd understand her a bit more, for this part at least. I'm not saying to agree with her gaming techniques/people skills or whatever (although there's nothing that I'm aware of there anyhow...except maybe the stagnancy of the game in the past for a period), but from THIS angle alone, how can people not see or care for what she must be going through?

Sorry, but this alone is a sore point with me. Not against you personally Cassy, but you asked what people think, but against this blindness of society doing this in such a "follow the leader" flock mentality, without looking at the ACTUAL issue, and thinking "Oh, but we've moved passed that", when the person who had the major problem is still stuck with it. This is sad. It can never go forward while people keep this attitude. I don't support this rift, and I'm voicing it here because I can. I agree with Nard in that there is a committee. That's great. Then the committee should make the necessary changes, and administer in the same way as new material gets "pushed".

So to look at it as petty is really disregarding the key issue, and going off on a tangent to a secondary one. To ban Platyna and agree with it is to turn a deaf ear on the car hijacking victim. Extreme example for my comment? yes. Fair? yes too. Should there be another driver? Maybe, but it isn't the point. The committee should have worked this out, and should even now work it out. This committee should include, due to this mess, Platyna and o11c, but as there is a rift, it should really go into the hands of a committee. There is no PERFECT solution. What's done is done, and the future is uncertain now. Interesting situation, to say the least. It should start out on a level to bring the genuine problems to air, and get them fixed. Bring out the points.

I learned a fantastic neutral technique called a cost/benefit analysis. Great stuff.

Divide a piece of paper into four... Put these headings...Top left, write "Advantages of doing _____", top right, write "Disadvantages of doing ______". Bottom left, write "Advantages of NOT doing _____", Bottom right, write "Disadvantages of NOT doing _____".

Write ALL the reasons (using the brainstorming method) to each section underneath the appropriate headings. Go heading by heading. Note...although advantages of doing may be the same as disadvantages of NOT doing, it's not always the case. Mark out the importance of each one per section...do this as a committee...don't develop into a fight over it...accept the points.

Do this with EACH possibility of directions to go. A decision will be easier...definitely easier.

If no one wants to come to the table though, then what is is, and I guess the game will one day just not be here any more.

[Cassy]

I just pick a few points here:

the game WAS taken, for whatever reason, away from Platyna.

blindness of society doing this in such a "follow the leader" flock mentality

TMW never belonged to Platyna, TMW belongs to no one as it is open source.
It's none-sense when people say PersonXYZ is the leader or when someone calls herself or himself the leader - there is no leader.
There are just a couple of people working on it and making decisions*.

*Here I go again with my opinion that banning Platyna should have been a decision made by the team, by the TMWC, not by a single person.

If we put ourselves in her shoes we'd understand her a bit more, for this part at least.

I understand very well that it hurts her to have her position removed.
It's not like I'm not able to imagine I was in her position although I wouldn't have acted like she did and does.
Therefore some of her actions seem quite reasonable to me, but this doesn't mean it's alright what she does.

The committee should have worked this out, and should even now work it out. This committee should include, due to this mess, Platyna and o11c, but as there is a rift, it should really go into the hands of a committee. There is no PERFECT solution.

Yeah I agree with that (except that Platyna really shouldn't be in the TMWC ).

[blackrazor]

@Cassy, Speiros, etc.

Well, since we're going off topic anyways, I have a couple points to make about this:

First, the server and client software and art assets are licensed as open-source, that is totally true. But the data, the player files, are something else entirely. That data is not covered by open source license. Same holds true for the forums. The forums software is licensed as open-source. But the data, the posts and threads, are not covered by open source license.

The data cannot belong to the "community", or the "project", or the TMWC, because these are not legal entities. Some groups create a non-profit corporation to protect assets, but that was never done for TMW.

The game data does not belong to the players, either, in the same way that your game data does not belong to you for any other online internet game to which you might sign up. We're not talking about personal information like email addresses here, just the data relating to your actions within the game. You still have rights, course. Rights to have data relating to you deleted, or stored safely, or not moved without your consent, for example. Rights vary from country to country, with the European Union having a number of additional rights specific to its member countries.

There is some dispute within the TMW community about who specifically owns the data that is currently running on themanaworld.org. Many people have taken strong positions on this, and believe fervently in their point of view, to the exclusion of all others, even to the point of wanting to eliminate or ban others who hold opposing points of view for being "disruptive" to the well being of the game and its continued development.

Okay, so to whom does the data belong? I may have some opinions, but no definite answers, and I doubt you will find any definite answers here. Some believe it belongs to Elvenprogrammer, since he started the TMW and hosted the first iteration of the current data, and he does own the domain name themanaworld.org. Others believe it belongs to Platyna, from the claim that the data was abdicated to her care and ran for years on her Platinum servers under her administration (not merely hosting), and that any copying or moving of that data without Platyna's consent is theft. Some believe that Platyna was holding the data hostage by abusing her power as server admin and that Frost and o11c of the soon-to-be (at the time) TMWC liberated the data, and restored it to its rightful owner (Elvenprogrammer) who then granted that the data should be where it is currently, by his action of pointing the domain name themanworld.org here.

Some of you feel very strongly about the validity of one version of events, or another. Almost with the strength and conviction that one would feel for a religion, a political party, or a football team. I humbly ask that you realize that there is no one truth, and no one is about to litigate or judge (in the legal sense) on this matter. So please chill, and leave room in your heart for the knowledge that other people may not believe the same as you do, but that they are still people, and worthy of your consideration.

P.S. From a pragmatic approach, all of this does not change what I stated earlier about my opinion that if the forum's current curators (whether you consider them valid or not is your opinion to make) did make a team decision to ban a specific member of the community, then that should be respected. It should be a team decision, in accordance with their stated rules, and through proper channels, with proper notice and recourse. And if someone is acting not as part of the team, that should be addressed, as well.

[Speiros02]

Thanks for your info blackrazor.

I agree that it should be a team that makes this decision. The point is, since that is agreed on by many, then the perspective should be to have an orderly way of doing this, and making sure a system is in place to correctly deal with this.

I agree that the legal avenue is silly to pursue, because seriously, the game can be closed, and re-opened on another server for anyone's part, and that there is nothing illegal here in this. But to have consideration for the players (which both Platyna AND o11c are showing), the game hasn't been closed.

The point is that this game and server is important because it is the players, devs, gm's that make it up, and anyone else who has. Otherwise it is as good as the git that I downloaded back in 2009...not that it would be up-to-date anymore, but regardless, even if I put it on a huuuuggeee server, it means nothing without the team. Hence, a team attitude is needed. To manage this correctly, a management system of some form or other should be worked on. Not saying that nothing exists, but it seems to have holes...vulnerabilities are pretty obvious in how this happened in the first place.

For instance...let's make a hypothetical...
A disruptive player comes in who isn't technically breaking rules that are already established. Maybe they cross borders over harrassment, or are dancing on the edges....
This leaves the committee to firstly install some rules, and explain the reasons for why these are there. Not everyone in the whole wide world needs to agree, as there is nothing that they ALL agree on anyway. Then a disciplinary action for such things needs to be explained, and be specific (eg, three verbals, temp ban, perm ban) or whatever. THEN and only then, should it be administered by the body. The body should be able to reason amongst themselves to make a decision, and THIS is the part where the majority should count. To make it as fair as possible, the committee should come from ALL angles that are relative to the game...player rep, dev rep, gm rep, and so on.

Anyway, if something is worked on, that's great, but if not, well then there is nothing to be expected when others complain.

[AnonDuck]

I'm just an advisor. But I am disappointed in the recent behavior displayed.

Yes, the forums suffer from excessive trolling. No, waving the banhammer around recklessly is not the proper solution.. in my opinion.

What should have happened:
Ammend the rules. Create policies that discourage all the various types of trolling that are going on. Inform everyone that such trolling will no longer be tolerated by anyone(TMWC included). Ban if needed.

Targeting people individually is reckless and generally not how things should be done. Such reckless behavior only encourages hard feelings and makes life more difficult for everyone.(As you can see from the response here on the forums).. Diplomacy was invented to solve problems while minimizing such hard feelings. Perhaps some people in TMWC need to learn how to use it.

No, I'm not denouncing TMWC as a failure or anything. They're actually a decent group of people and are trying very hard to improve TMW even though some of the obstacles to doing so seem insurmountable. They just made a mistake. There's nothing wrong with that as long as they learn from mistakes. You can't expect everyone to always do the right thing every time.. especially when under stress.

The real question in my mind right now is.. What will they do to ease the current situation? Where do we go from here?

[Nard]

I'm just an advisor. But I am disappointed in the recent behavior displayed.

Yes, the forums suffer from excessive trolling. [...]

I totally agree with MadCamel here, but this applies also to game rules.

I may add that, in matter of "trolling" the limits are hard to define and may heavily depend on who is aimed by the troll. Restrictions on this aspect may be the cause of the arbitrary kingdom rise, and have for consequences endless flame wars. This also applies to insults. There is no reason that rules should be strictly applied to someone and seen friendly with another one, especially when "another one" belongs to TMWc.

[AnonDuck]

I may add that, in matter of "trolling" the limits are hard to define and may heavily depend on who is aimed by the troll. Restrictions on this aspect may be the cause of the arbitrary kingdom rise, and have for consequences endless flame wars. This also applies to insults. There is no reason that rules should be strictly applied to someone and seen friendly with another one, especially when "another one" belongs to TMWc.

I don't know that there's a real solution to that problem.. If there is I can't really think of one.. I figure just make the rules as clear as possible and hope for the best... what else can you do?

[Nard]

I may add that, in matter of "trolling" the limits are hard to define and may heavily depend on who is aimed by the troll. [...]

I don't know that there's a real solution to that problem.. If there is I can't really think of one.. I figure just make the rules as clear as possible and hope for the best... what else can you do?

I am afraid there is none with some exceptions, like insults. I think that tolerance is the best solution, I do believe in (statistical) people wiseness.
We may also notice that some people who had been guilty of much more serious offences (repeated insults, fishing, dos) and are still in game or on this forum.
In the specific point, there is also a bias: People who were not involved in the hardware change, may feel upset and get angry with no real reason. Nobody can be charged with actions decided by others.

[blackrazor]

I may add that, in matter of "trolling" the limits are hard to define and may heavily depend on who is aimed by the troll. Restrictions on this aspect may be the cause of the arbitrary kingdom rise, and have for consequences endless flame wars. This also applies to insults. There is no reason that rules should be strictly applied to someone and seen friendly with another one, especially when "another one" belongs to TMWc.

I don't know that there's a real solution to that problem.. If there is I can't really think of one.. I figure just make the rules as clear as possible and hope for the best... what else can you do?

There are certainly other things you can do; learn to grow a thicker skin is number one on my list. Practice diplomacy, learn to turn others into your allies, or at least neutral. Most of life's problems are not efficiently solved by waving about a larger cudgel.

If you start making more rules that even now you worry might not be applied evenly depending on who the troll targets (liked or disliked by the TMWC, for example), then you are in real danger of a descent into tyranny. And that is a very difficult course to reverse, if later you find you don't like the taste.

Always ask yourself, if Platyna didn't need more rules to control and to punish, then why do you?

You could start by enforcing the rules you already have. If one of the TMWC broke the rules of consensus, and it's not even a first-time offense for this, then maybe he no longer merits a position on the TMWC. Meritocracy works both ways. You gain through merit. But you also lose through lack of merit.

[Speiros02]

I just pick a few points here:

the game WAS taken, for whatever reason, away from Platyna.

blindness of society doing this in such a "follow the leader" flock mentality

TMW never belonged to Platyna, TMW belongs to no one as it is open source.
It's none-sense when people say PersonXYZ is the leader or when someone calls herself or himself the leader - there is no leader.
There are just a couple of people working on it and making decisions*.

*Here I go again with my opinion that banning Platyna should have been a decision made by the team, by the TMWC, not by a single person.

If we put ourselves in her shoes we'd understand her a bit more, for this part at least.

I understand very well that it hurts her to have her position removed.
It's not like I'm not able to imagine I was in her position although I wouldn't have acted like she did and does.
Therefore some of her actions seem quite reasonable to me, but this doesn't mean it's alright what she does.

The committee should have worked this out, and should even now work it out. This committee should include, due to this mess, Platyna and o11c, but as there is a rift, it should really go into the hands of a committee. There is no PERFECT solution.

Yeah I agree with that (except that Platyna really shouldn't be in the TMWC ).

Sorry Cassy, I missed your comments. I definitely wasn't dissing you.

I still push for the point that Platyna DID have something taken from her, and although it might not have been the perspective of anything that is legal, due to exactly what is stated that it is an open-source licence, it isn't exactly "hers". Still, she DID have a position, and now doesn't, and it wasn't removed by (at least what appears to be) any orderly way. Still, I'm not dissing your angle that the ownership belonged to others also, as there are many who have added to the game as it currently stands. As for a leader, unfortunately, one who "takes the lead" is designated as a leader, and at present, there are indeed leaders. Leaders are ones who have control of something, and by either dictatorship, or by the actions of the people, are in a position to MAKE decisions, including the development of the game. We may have good ideas, but it can't be put into the game without the acknowledgement of the "leaders". So ownership and leadership vary a little. I still see your point in where you're coming from, but if I was to say "Platyna was just a player on Manaworld" would be totally inaccurate. Some leaders listen to the people before making a decision, and others decide what is best for either themselves, their own stand, or indeed the people on their own thoughts. Which one is right/wrong? Well, all decisions have advantages and disadvantages.

Also, this in no way says whether her leadership methods were good or bad. That's not really my place, but the issue shouldn't even be there, as 1) I'm not in that position to make a decision on her...(I DON'T have all the facts, and it's not my place to call those shots) 2) The issue is that there is a mess based on this rift of removal which has affected the harmony of the game (THAT is the issue), and 3) It's a disrespectful stand in that against the established rule that is spoken of as accepted and acceptable, it isn't being followed.

Also, I believe MadCamel has hit the nail on the head. The steps he's highlighted are in the right order, and allow for things to settle peacefully, and then allow for maintenance of peace. What to do now is to do exactly those steps that you highlighted. It's not too late, as it's actually an opportune time to look at the application of those points based on a need.

And BlackRazor, yes indeed. If the TMWC has followed an established method, then that is great. The only problem is that the angle has spread out into the Mana "world" as a disorderly mess, and also that some consistencies have shown that this is still happening (referring to some of the secondary "branches" of issues mentioned in the forums). What needs from this part then is that the TMWC are SHOWN to be united in their decisions publicly. The image presented to the public is important. Let the disagreements over management stay in the committee board rooms, and have an established method of agreement before presenting the results to the public.

[meway]

The thing that I am sure of here is that discussing this topic will not change the results. It is disgusting that there is more discussion going on here than on a useful productive topic like this one viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17964 but bitching is more convenient for everyone. How about this is a development forum and petty things like this is distracting. This topic is just noise and is useless.

[WildX]

The thing that I am sure of here is that discussing this topic will not change the results. It is disgusting that there is more discussion going on here than on a useful productive topic like this one viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17964 but bitching is more convenient for everyone. How about this is a development forum and petty things like this is distracting. This topic is just noise and is useless.

Truth is, development wouldn't go any faster without the drama.

[meway]

The thing that I am sure of here is that discussing this topic will not change the results. It is disgusting that there is more discussion going on here than on a useful productive topic like this one viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17964 but bitching is more convenient for everyone. How about this is a development forum and petty things like this is distracting. This topic is just noise and is useless.

Truth is, development wouldn't go any faster without the drama.

prove me wrong.

[Speiros02]

The thing that I am sure of here is that discussing this topic will not change the results. It is disgusting that there is more discussion going on here than on a useful productive topic like this one viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17964 but bitching is more convenient for everyone. How about this is a development forum and petty things like this is distracting. This topic is just noise and is useless.

Truth is, development wouldn't go any faster without the drama.

prove me wrong.

The petty part isn't that there are these issues. The problem is that these issues have gone on to develop into this. Yes, it is a more practical step, and less distracting, to look at a way to fix things. The link is good, yet the perspective that these other issues arise also needs addressing, and the attitude to fixing it should indeed be one of being positive. Instead of having to state what a crappy job Player XYZ does ((by the way, you can whisper "Player XYZ is abusing me")...lol...sorry, couldn't resist...love that message), a highlighting of the options is good, and then some possible solutions. The same methodology as this page shown for sure. Good plan Meway, and good to see an idea that when someone has a problem, they should look at addressing the actual issue.