Re: Re: Please ban meko for sexual harrasment

[Marzon]

This is not a discussion forum. If you want to discuss something please do so in "player talk".

This is a "Court House (Abuse Forum)" and I submitted a complaint of sexual harassment. You should unlock my thread. Even if you felt that it's wrong section then why didn't you move the post to "player talk" instead of locking it?

We as gms cannot act upon hearsay

Here's the print-screen:

meko.png (174.97 KiB) Viewed 2655 times

I can PM it without the black-box privately to an admin / GM if s/he promises to keep the identity of the victim secret. And why don't you ask the accused that whether the allegations I've made against him are correct? Also I'm not the only one who has posted a complaint against him in this forum. Do you honestly think I'm lying? What would you have done if it had been with your sister / mother?

What has Cassy, a female staff, got to say about my previous locked post:


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Please ban meko for sexual harrasment


I complaint to wushin but got no reply:

[04:10] Marzon: ban meko please. he AFK follows ppl and sits on them and then does love emote
[04:11] Marzon: does this to both males and females

after waiting for reply from wushin, I whispered Prsm and his reply:

[23:26] Marzon: Prsm pls ban meko for sexual harrasment. He AFK follows people, sits on them or stands at the same location and does love emote. He does this to both males and females. He did to me and within 10 minutes ago he did to someone else as well, here in this area around you.
[23:31] Prsm: you need to call me so i can see it
[23:32] Prsm: svreen shots dont count
[23:32] Prsm: screen*
[23:35] Marzon: You can ask the person (victim) who's in the screen shot and if he says that the screen shot is true and meko also admits then you can ban him.
[23:36] Prsm: i can not, i need to see it and warn him
[23:36] Prsm: those are the rules

This is Not how court rooms work; if someone complaints in court and the guilty admits to his crime then he's punished. I can privately send the screen-shot and meko can be asked.

When I opened the "Court House (Abuse Forum)" I noticed that the most recent post is also complaining against meko:

I had a character - Meko following me round and attempting to pick up my drops.
Waits on the spot until available then moves on.

So now there are at least two people who have complaint against him in this "Court House" forum. Don't just warn him and leave him; if it would have been a real court then he would have got punished, this is logical. He sexually harasses females as well, this is serious.

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[SriNitayanda]

This is a "Court House (Abuse Forum)" and I submitted a complaint of sexual harassment. You should unlock my thread. Even if you felt that it's wrong section then why didn't you move the post to "player talk" instead of locking it?

It was moved now, the other post you saw before on court house should have been moved also.

Also I'm not the only one who has posted a complaint against him in this forum. Do you honestly think I'm lying? What would you have done if it had been with your sister / mother?

No one thinks you are lying but in order to take action a GM needs to be present while the harssment happens, this is to prevent players spreading rumors about each other all over the forums.

I complaint to wushin but got no reply:

wushin is content lead he got nothing to do with abuse reports. you can look here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17166 to know the staff better.

Anyway i bet with your complaint all over the forums now he will be kicked/banned next time he sits on somebody, i know few players who get the same punishment for being less annoying.

[Silent Dawn]

I can PM it without the black-box privately to an admin / GM if s/he promises to keep the identity of the victim secret.

Please do.

Did the "victim" say something to you about meko's behaviour?
From what i see in the screenshot, there was a visible GM at that moment, so s/he could have reported it to him if s/he was bothered with what meko was doing and the GM would have act based on that.
Posting it on the forums wont do anything. It would be like if someone comes in the forums and say "hey, player X is afk botting on the red slimes area". GM's cannot act based on situations that already happened.
You have the @wgm command in game, please use it, even if you dont see any visible GM:)

[Marzon]

wushin is content lead he got nothing to do with abuse reports.

When I whispered him his name was "wushin (GM)" and it was in green.

A few minutes ago I was in the game and player "Kull" did the same thing as meko: sat on me and did love emote. I told him to get away and he replied "No, Duck you" (it has been starred by the forum). I immediately entered in general tab:

@wgm Kull is harassing me

When I got no response for a while I entered again:

@wgm player Kull is abusing me

Waited, got no response and Kull left.

Now will Kull also go unpunished like meko or they both will be punished?

[Marzon]

Please do.

So you promise to keep the identity secret?

Did the "victim" say something to you about meko's behavior?

I'm one of the victims and I say that I didn't like his behavior. The person in the screen-shot did angry emote publicly.

From what i see in the screenshot, there was a visible GM at that moment

But the GM was AFK when this was happening:

[23:26] Marzon: Prsm pls ban meko for sexual harrasment. He AFK follows people, sits on them or stands at the same location and does love emote. He does this to both males and females. He did to me and within 10 minutes ago he did to someone else as well, here in this area around you.
[23:31] Prsm: you need to call me so i can see it
[23:32] Prsm: svreen shots dont count
[23:32] Prsm: screen*
[23:35] Marzon: You can ask the person (victim) who's in the screen shot and if he says that the screen shot is true and meko also admits then you can ban him.
[23:36] Prsm: i can not, i need to see it and warn him
[23:36] Prsm: those are the rules

You have the @wgm command in game, please use it, even if you dont see any visible GM:)

I was using it while Kull was sitting on me for 1 to 2 minutes with a continues love emote.

[Silent Dawn]

Please do.

So you promise to keep the identity secret?

I will

I was using it while Kull was sitting on me for 1 to 2 minutes with a continues love emote.

Yes, indeed i saw it and jumped on you, but it was too late already, he was moving away on that moment.
Also, you have the feature "nuke" on manaplus. It will like if he or any other player never existed if someone is bothering you that much and there's no GM available at that moment.

[prsm]

If I may, I will try and explain again.

Firstly, this is not a real live court house, its a game with a defined set of rules.

In the event that someone feels they have been wronged (bullied, insulted, sexual harassed, or the likes), they may request a GM to help. This can be done through @wgm. A GM, if available, will show up and observe. If the GM finds that the behavior is against the rules, a warning will be issued. If the behavior continues a ban will be forthcoming.

We have never banned on request, nor do we use screenies since in the past they have been shown to be unreliable (forged).

That being said, if you feel that's not enough, manaplus does have an option to "nuke" or "ignore" a player. Which will make the offending player invisible to you.

Lastly, the court house forum page is for gm's to publish and record incidents of policing. It's not for players to use at all, unless they are asking for an unban.

If I have said something you don't understand, please feel free to ask me about it.

Prsm

[Marzon]

Silent Dawn,
I've PMed you the screen-shot of him bothering a male.

[Marzon]

Prsm,

If I may, I will try and explain again.

Firstly, this is not a real live court house, its a game

"This" and "it" are referring to the "Court House (Abuse Forum)" or the game? I was giving a logic while citing example from a higher authority. If GMs think that a crime is not big enough to ban a player then the player can be temporary banned.

with a defined set of rules.

Which rule prevents GMs from asking the accused that whether allegations against him are correct? If the accused accepts that he's guilty then by your rules will you say "Even when you're admitting, we can't punish you because none of us were there when you were doing it". Thankfully, Silent Dawn has said to me that she will ask meko.

In the event that someone feels they have been wronged (bullied, insulted, sexual harassed, or the likes), they may request a GM to help. This can be done through @wgm.

Didn't you read that I did try using "@wgm", doesn't that mean I'm aware of it? It didn't work for me; a solution to this is to have a feature to take video-shots via server (not in picture form but player positions in the room, the emotes they are doing, what they are publicly chatting); another easier solution is to ask the accused that whether allegations against him are correct.

Lastly, the court house forum page is for gm's to publish and record incidents of policing.

As I've asked you before, why didn't you move my post instead of locking it?


If I have said something you don't understand, please feel free to ask me about it.

[prsm]

With all do respect, I have told you "how It is", and you have told me "how you want it to be". Until you can can convince the tmwc to initiate said changes, we will do it the tried and true way.

Prsm

And for what it's worth, I didnt lock your page.

[Marzon]

And for what it's worth, I didnt lock your page.

Sorry I confused you with veryape. Came to forum to edit my post but you had already replied, sorry.

[veryape]

Yes. I closed the topic in the Courthouse subforum, because it is not a place for chatting.

And since the part of the topic that had anything to do with abuse was ended there at lest from my point of view i thought I better close it or it will turn into a chat-thread.

You then started a new topic there that i moved to player chat.

But what we are discussing now is not the same thing, it is about your feelings about the rules.

If you have troubles, report it in game and a GM will help you if they are available. If not available you can use the nuke/ignore player options in manaplus so you don't have to see players that are bugging you.

If GMs think that a crime is not big enough to ban a player then the player can be temporary banned.

A temporary ban is also a ban, and we do not ban if we are not sure of a ban. What would that lead to in this example?

The only ban I can think of in those kinds of circumstances is to ban a player temporary is if we have really good reason to think that there is a ongoing scam or anything so we can protect the account from being emptied.

As we have all said, you need to contact us in the game since witnesses and screenshots are not considered evidence. It is in the sticky about Abuse reports.

[Marzon]

Until you can can convince the tmwc to initiate said changes

Why are you so concerned about rules? Won't you just follow your moral intuition? Morals are always above laws, IMO. I'm talking about inquiring the accused.

I've PMed Cassy, a TMWC member I respect a lot, requesting that GMs should ask the accused in such cases, as till a GM arrives for @wgm call, the abuser may have stopped, as it happened with me.

[Marzon]

veryape, the first paragraph of the reply you gave me was:

This is not a discussion forum. If you want to discuss something please do so in "player talk".

You yourself said that my post is better suited in "player talk" forum but instead of moving it you just locked it. Sri Nitayanda also agreed: "It was moved now, the other post you saw before on court house should have been moved also."

was ended there at lest from my point of view i thought I better close it

Yes from your point of view but the thread starter may have something to reply, and locking the thread is like trying to mute him.

A temporary ban is also a ban, and we do not ban if we are not sure of a ban.

I didn't say do a temporary ban if you're not sure. I said that instead of giving warning, ban the user temporarily. Like real courts don't give warnings, they give small punishment for small crime and big punishment for big crime.

As we have all said, you need to contact us in the game since witnesses and screenshots are not considered evidence.

I did in the "Kull" 's case.

[veryape]

veryape, the first paragraph of the reply you gave me was:

This is not a discussion forum. If you want to discuss something please do so in "player talk".

You yourself said that my post is better suited in "player talk" forum but instead of moving it you just locked it. Sri Nitayanda also agreed: "It was moved now, the other post you saw before on court house should have been moved also."

Yeah, I could have moved it instead, but I didn't. Now it is in there, locked so that other people can see that we do not want discussion threads in there. We didn't mute you, you still have your chance to discuss freely in the appropriate forum. This thread is the living example of it.

was ended there at lest from my point of view i thought I better close it

Yes from your point of view but the thread starter may have something to reply, and locking the thread is like trying to mute him.

You are not muted.. you are going strong in this thread that I moved here from the abuse forum.

A temporary ban is also a ban, and we do not ban if we are not sure of a ban.

I didn't say do a temporary ban if you're not sure. I said that instead of giving warning, ban the user temporarily. Like real courts don't give warnings, they give small punishment for small crime and big punishment for big crime.

Those are our guidelines

As we have all said, you need to contact us in the game since witnesses and screenshots are not considered evidence.

I did in the "Kull" 's case.

Yes, i saw that but too late, SD saw it too and went to check, but she didn't see anything.
We as gm's, do this on our free time, we cannot be online 24/7 but we do try our best to be available. You have the tools to ignore users built in to your client, use them if we can't help you. Keep calling us if you are abused, a regular abuser will be found and punished soon enough if you keep reporting him. We cannot offer 100% protection from abuse since we all do this on our free time.