[GM Review] Scammers

[Wombat]

Warning - scam about "cheat to enhance warlord helmet"

Scammers scammers everywhere and not a person to trust

Although the practice of scamming players is not explicitly against the rules, it is morally wrong.

I am prepared to enforce TEMPORARY bans on scammers, under the condition that I witness the act and that the act is not provoked.

HOWEVER!

Players are reminded that there is a perfectly good trading system in the game, players claiming that their trade window is broken etc, should NOT be trusted (unless an official bug report is lodged)

If you are scammed, you are partly to blame, if no one gave in to these scammers they would not be here!

Please remember, only "loan" items to players you TRUST WITHOUT A DOUBT!

Cheers

Cappy =)

Why are scammers even getting GM intervention? A response I gave to the first link posted.

Why is this being discussed here? Scamming is a part of the roleplaying aspect of the game. Shady though it may be, such things should be handled by the players. I also strongly disagree with outting character names. Guilds could choose to scam a rival guild or they could post warning in the Player Talk forums and/or their guild page on who is scamming people. In other words, the guilds and their leaders should be handling this problem, not GMs. Personally I think that merchants with good reputations could be applauded by various player groups as "trusted" while the opposite could be done to those that player groups don't trust.

Request this thread be moved to "Player Talk" where it belongs and the names exposed through GM privilege be removed.

I also will stand by my statement that the players names exposed via GM privilege should be removed.

[Kage]

Why is this being discussed here? Scamming is a part of the roleplaying aspect of the game. Shady though it may be, such things should be handled by the players. I also strongly disagree with outting character names. Guilds could choose to scam a rival guild or they could post warning in the Player Talk forums and/or their guild page on who is scamming people. In other words, the guilds and their leaders should be handling this problem, not GMs. Personally I think that merchants with good reputations could be applauded by various player groups as "trusted" while the opposite could be done to those that player groups don't trust.

Request this thread be moved to "Player Talk" where it belongs and the names exposed through GM privilege be removed.

Scamming is a indeed part of the RPG experience.

However, their is a difference between tricking someone something is worth more value then it is. Over using a feature such as telling a player they need to drop a item for them to "bless it".

The main issue being, if someone tells you to lay down your you helmet so they can bless it, then picks it up and makes off with it. I would mostly likely put a arrow though the conartist back. Then take my helmet and any other loot he carries.

In reality, most players don't want this level of realism. But if this level of realism exists, there would be no problem with scamming players. That's where the issue exists.

[Hexy]

why there is still no good visible sticky to inform new players and thats it...

Putt a good visible sticky in the Forums, tell all its not against the rules and tell them what they can do that they are save...

Im against make public the nicks too, because i dont want to end in one of that lists because may i will have some enimies one day, who put me with a fake on that list to hurt me.

So. Good information for newbees is needed if you don't want to much frustrated game starters. No inforcement of the rules.

Put all information about scamming in a sticky... the enhance wepon storry, the light blue "jeans" storry, the lend me for a minute to check my style story, the lend me blue clothes for quest thing, etc. pp, .... and make a advice if you login the game with the link to the forum, and where are the noobinformations.

That would be a true help. I'd like to make one, but my english i fear not is good enough. I tried a post some days ago, but he will fall down the forums and than nobody reads again.

[CapitanAwesome]

Here in Australia, if the public complain to the authorities about a person who is running a scam, that person is investigated and a punishment dealt if required.
The punishment isn't usually all that harsh (fines, community service etc) but it still acts as some kind of deterrent as well as... a punishment for doing something that is morally wrong, yet still part of everyday life.

If someone wants to pay 1k for a silk cocoon, so be it. The buyer may have made a mistake and the seller recieved an awesome price, but this happens all the time.

On the other hand, "blessing" items cannot be done by players (or GM's!) and if "blessing" an item means someone acquires property by deceit, they have committed an offense (IRL) and therefore, I see no problem dealing a punishment in game! The punishment will only be a temporary ban, but that should serve as a deterrent to would be scammers.

I have said all along that every player in this game needs to take responsibility for the security of their own items, and that loaning items to other players should only be done when you have complete trust in the other players abilities to return the item in question.

In closing your honour, I would like to say that if and when the time comes, watch out scammers, because if I find you guilty, you will pay the price.


Cappy =)

[Hexy]

But we play a Game here, a RP-Game.

If i make a char to scamm with it (i won't) and he got temporaly banned, i just make another one. So thats in my opinion, no disrespect for you, no solution. I won't say its not a funny idea for rpg in general. They anyways make always new chars, because the comunity works well, ppl are warning each others ingame.

Don't you think that the ppl for sure are responsable for their itens but also have a right to get informed about the small rpg or not rpg-risks that are existing? So that all ppl can take part on it, and its not a onesided thing. Because if the new player dont get informed about that, the onley one who is playing his "rpg" is the scammer.

[feline monstrosity]

Personally I agree with Wombat on this. If someone is stupid enough to "lend" someone a precious item who they don't know they can trust then they probably deserve to lose it. If you come up with enough of a convincing lie that you can get someone to drop an item for you then you probably deserve that item.

On a side note I would also love to be able to shoot a scammer in the back with an arrow.

[Hexy]

in the back

of course!

[Doulos]

player versus environment (PvE)

I believe the issue here is getting a bit muddied.

Simply put: TMW -- as it is currently laid out -- is PvE (Player versus Environment) with a TINY sprinkling of PvP (Player versus Player - in a small cave... just for the fun of it). There ARE two teams: Humans versus Monsters, as TMW is currently laid out.

So, in this way I completely disagree with Wombat.

player versus player (PvP)

I've seen plans for future maps and ideas for TMW wherein thieves will BE part of the culture -- a mix of PvE & PvP throughout the game will exist. There will be an entire CONTINENT set aside simply for PvP. And it looks like this game has incredible potential.

So, under THOSE conditions, I entirely agree with Wombat.

current layout

Under the current layout of the game, it is entirely possible to allow for theft and scamming and so on. However it is a betrayal on the part of fellow team members (because it is us humans against them monsters).

If the GMs feel that Wombat's point is valid, then perhaps a quick addition to Ian's message to new players is warranted telling them that such scamming is valid. There's nothing in Ian's instructions that tells us that certain characters will spend most of their time lying to us and cheating us out of hard earned armor and such simply for the fun of doing it.

[Wombat]

Here goes some highlights with a conversation I had with Kage on IRC about this subject earlier today:

(3:35:27 AM) wombatism: ok..I'll think on it. I think there is something to be able to scam players (i.e. Rogues Guild)

(3:36:31 AM) Kage_Jittai: wombatism: the thing is in true RPGs, only your imagination should limit you what actions should be take. Not code.
(3:36:45 AM) Kage_Jittai: I.E. PvP on everywhere
(3:36:48 AM) Kage_Jittai: able to kill NPCs
(3:36:56 AM) Kage_Jittai: (or at lest fight them)
(3:37:35 AM) Kage_Jittai: but it turns out, that having a true RPG experience in a MMO doesn't work out all that well
(3:39:01 AM) Kage_Jittai: even to the fact you loose all items, and experience when you die (unless your brought back though some force)
(3:39:14 AM) Kage_Jittai: but even then, we should be able to take items from dead players.

(3:39:16 AM) wombatism: to me, a player group page that exposes charlatans is a more apt response than GM intervention. It would create more player trust in player groups that favor honesty among those that want an honest game

(3:41:11 AM) wombatism: perhaps the time I felt the strongest guild bond I felt was when HMC was united against pickpocket

(3:39:46 AM) Kage_Jittai: wombatism: ah, another issue.
(3:40:15 AM) Kage_Jittai: wombatism:
(3:40:17 AM) Kage_Jittai: wombatism: animity
(3:40:43 AM) Kage_Jittai: wombatism: that wouldn't be a issue either, if it wasn't possible for a player to create 35 accounts
(3:40:52 AM) Kage_Jittai: but we can't stop that

(3:41:14 AM) Kage_Jittai: so if a player is exposed as a scammer, he just needs to make a new account
(3:41:19 AM) wombatism: that true
(3:42:04 AM) Kage_Jittai: wombatism: player guilds can still inform and try to educate people about scammers
(3:43:11 AM) Kage_Jittai: wombatism: but when large numbers of people in the community starts requesting scammers be banned. Is when GMs start to take actions.
(3:43:22 AM) wombatism: but it is far less relevant if the GMs take on the role. however, I am yielding to the logic that 35 accounts makes it hard to uncover scammers when all you need is a different name to "shapechange"
(3:44:26 AM) Kage_Jittai: wombatism: ok, lets assume shapechangers exist (and in that, magic). Also means there would be a counter magic to relieve those shapechangers. Ya think
(3:44:53 AM) Kage_Jittai: plus, again, if you want to look at it as a RPG aspect, even shapechangers die when shot with a arrow
(3:45:27 AM) wombatism:
(3:45:53 AM) Kage_Jittai: Unless, we assume they are shapechanges who can not be uncovered, and immune to all attacks from other players.
(3:46:01 AM) Kage_Jittai: then we have what you call a balancing issue
(3:46:30 AM) wombatism: gotcha

[Wombat]

Here in Australia, if the public complain to the authorities about a person who is running a scam, that person is investigated and a punishment dealt if required.
The punishment isn't usually all that harsh (fines, community service etc) but it still acts as some kind of deterrent as well as... a punishment for doing something that is morally wrong, yet still part of everyday life.

If someone wants to pay 1k for a silk cocoon, so be it. The buyer may have made a mistake and the seller recieved an awesome price, but this happens all the time.

On the other hand, "blessing" items cannot be done by players (or GM's!) and if "blessing" an item means someone acquires property by deceit, they have committed an offense (IRL) and therefore, I see no problem dealing a punishment in game! The punishment will only be a temporary ban, but that should serve as a deterrent to would be scammers.

I have said all along that every player in this game needs to take responsibility for the security of their own items, and that loaning items to other players should only be done when you have complete trust in the other players abilities to return the item in question.

In closing your honour, I would like to say that if and when the time comes, watch out scammers, because if I find you guilty, you will pay the price.


Cappy =)

GMs aren't the police. I definitely wouldn't want Australian law in this game. I also find your bravado to be unbecoming of a GM. Such things are what player group leaders should be saying to win their membership over, thus give reason for player groups to exist. GMs serve as assistants to players and were created to help players, not rule them.

My reasons for yielding on this subject are based on issues of game balance (functional/utilitarian) and definitely not moral authority nor for punitive reasons.

[Kage]

I think every one should read the story about the Head of Vecna http://www.blindpanic.com/humor/vecna.htm if you have not already.

Ok. That being read, it easy to say that they scammed the other team to gain a advantage. I think this shows that scamming can enhance game play. In fantasy worlds, conmen exist just as they do in real life.

CptnAwesome: Yes in real if you scam someone you go to prison. But also in real life if you carried around a bow and arrow and shot up fluffy bunny rabbits, you'd end up in a place just as bad.

That being said RP != Real Life. In fantasy medieval worlds, people do have to look out for conartist, even more so since they are ready to proclaim every other rock will grant eternal life.

So I am FOR people wanting to player scammers as a role-playing point.

But as I stated before we can not current do this because of limitations with the game. For one if we want the true RP experience, we should have PvP everywhere. And the ability to loot items from players we kill.

The whole idea:
PlayerA: "Hes scammed me and running off with my items!!!!"
*arrows comes darting out of nowhere killing the conartist*

After while, only truly good conartist who are able to use their abilities to survive would be left alive.

But we can't do that. Since it would make the game worse off.

[Doulos]

So, essentially: if someone has the right (within the jurisdiction of the game) to scam a player out of hard earned items..., that player should also have some method of getting his gear back. And what better way than picking them up from the scammer's dead body?

But currently the scammer, in TMW, runs away with gear leaving the scammed one at a complete loss as to what s/he can do. So s/he appeals to the forums and the GMs. And apparently there's no Thieves' Guild at the moment... there's just a single thief with multiple log-in names in order carry out this imbalance.

Have I recapped this correctly?

[Hexy]

yes you have Dolous, but i think there are more than one around.

Why the posibility to get the gear back? Is that a must? As we know its actually impossible but we have the problem of scamming now, even its not a big problem if you ask me, just a interesting one.

If you get offered a Jeans for 6k (to maybe get a fast trade because cheap) what are you doing? You have a smart lock if its really a Jeans.
If you get asked for blue cloth to make the noh-quest. You ask for a dead plage (?¿?sorry...bad engl maybee) in form of WarlordPlate, Steelshield, WarlordHelmet and Weapon. Why?

Because you are informed about the posibility of geting scammed.

So it wont happen to nobody if they all would know how to treat this situation. Its not a big thing, just a small information at the right place.. maybe inside of the "how to get started" or here idk.

[Doulos]

Why the posibility to get the gear back? Is that a must? As we know its actually impossible but we have the problem of scamming now, even its not a big problem if you ask me, just a interesting one.

One player was told by ange1234 that her trade feature was broken. The player was asked to dropped major gear but in a private place. All seems above board... but as the player was dropping gear ange1234 was just scooping it up.

If the issue is 4 snake skins, I agree with you, hexy. Chalk it up to experience and don't trust dubious trade methods. I would think someone would want their warlord armor set returned.

[Lutzifer]

Well what a great idea to ignore the scamming till a thieves city or guild is implemented. Meanwhile we will continue to loose new users. I have seen people in Tulimshar just starting this game get scammed and quit on the spot.

Now let me paint a picture for you all. Remember when you started. Most of these new players are coming here because TMW is included with their install of Ubunutu. They have no idea there is a wiki or a forum or IRC channels. So Ange1234 is sitting there and says hey give me your shirt and knife i will bless it. They don't know this can't be done they don't know jack. So they drop em they get picked up and this person say well the hell with this game this games sucks and they log out. Now how would you have liked that the first time you tried to play ask yourself this first.

And as far as the notion of PVP everywhere well what's to stop me from sitting anywhere with my bow and no matter if someone scammed me or not. I just sit there and pick em off as they login take thier shirt and knife. Or other items lower players have collected.

There are two sides to the story here we are overlooking as you all aren't noobs dealing with this you are players that have a long history of dealing with scams and have more information about the game and it's mechanics than someone first logging in.

As far as letting then 15 or so names of Ange1234 run around I think a ip ban is in order otherwise it's just a slap in the face to ignore it to all who try to make this a community game. We don't have pvp everywhere we don't have a thieves town or guilds or pickpocketing abilities. All we have here is a person running around ruining the community stealing from noobs who end up quitting cause they lost their gear. And this is pissing off high level players and causing them to leave since no one will do anything about it.

And until we have these other thing something needs to be done. LONG LIVE CAPITAN AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1