'whane' banned for AFK healing
'whane' banned for AFK healing
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Last edited by iamWayne on 04 Feb 2010, 05:13, edited 2 times in total.
Re: [BAN] whane banned for AFK healing
I second that, whane should be allowed as a friendly bot. He has done much to help the community, healing, protecting, etc... I don't think healing and protecting is malicious, he has actually helped me out of many tight spots (I was down to around 20/360HP and he healed me). I doubt that my opinion matters, but you asked if whane has been a help or nuisance. That's my two cents. 
Re: [BAN] whane banned for AFK healing
Quite sure the problem is that he is gaining XP while AFK = botting.
Re: [BAN] whane banned for AFK healing
I think it was very handy having whane healing and protecting others. If he just healed and protected others and nothing else then i cant see a problem for having him healing, or better yet have a soul menir in the graveyard in the house or something.
Re: [BAN] whane banned for AFK healing
If I AFK Bot (fight monsters) to help protect others, can I be considered friendly?
Re: [BAN] whane banned for AFK healing
The big problem I see with whane as an auto heal device is that he takes exp from other people who are actively at their keyboards and typing to keep people alive. Someone gives the Emote+1 face or says "heal" and whane automatically heals, denying someone working for it the opportunity to earn exp as a healer.
If healing did not provide exp, this wouldn't be an issue. However some people (like myself) are healers and keep losing out on experience because whane is sitting in an area where people take a lot of damage and taking our opportunities away.
I think that if whane was botting in one of the towns, this would be acceptable. When people respawn, they can receive a heal if they request it. I don't think he should be providing all of the services. As generous and nice as they are, health is something that regenerates just by standing still or using a healing item. However, protection spells that raise defense give an unfair advantage that should be earned.
The TL;DR version of this is: No, he should not be allowed unless it is in towns only and only as a healer.
ETA: I just overheard someone talking about the inconvenience of not having immediate healing. I understand how hard that must be on attacking characters, but that isn't how the game was designed to be played.
-Just Me
If healing did not provide exp, this wouldn't be an issue. However some people (like myself) are healers and keep losing out on experience because whane is sitting in an area where people take a lot of damage and taking our opportunities away.
I think that if whane was botting in one of the towns, this would be acceptable. When people respawn, they can receive a heal if they request it. I don't think he should be providing all of the services. As generous and nice as they are, health is something that regenerates just by standing still or using a healing item. However, protection spells that raise defense give an unfair advantage that should be earned.
The TL;DR version of this is: No, he should not be allowed unless it is in towns only and only as a healer.
ETA: I just overheard someone talking about the inconvenience of not having immediate healing. I understand how hard that must be on attacking characters, but that isn't how the game was designed to be played.
-Just Me
-Just Me
Re: [BAN] whane banned for AFK healing
True, this is not a discussion forum: Then move the thread to player talk so messages don't get lost.
I can see the point in not allowing an auto-healing client. But allowing other bots like confused tree to do so is just plain wrong, officially allowed or not. Either make it an NPC or don't allow it to heal. Rules are rules, and should apply to anyone. If Confused tree is allowed, Whane should be allowed too.
Wayne has a point. If confused tree is allowed, Whane should be allowed too (even though it can be moved to a hot area). Banning then shouldn't be used without a warning. It was the arbitrary use of the rules that lead him to the logic conclusion that his char was as legal as the tree (he didn't do anything to keep Whane's existence in secret, he told everyone about it).
I can see the point in not allowing an auto-healing client. But allowing other bots like confused tree to do so is just plain wrong, officially allowed or not. Either make it an NPC or don't allow it to heal. Rules are rules, and should apply to anyone. If Confused tree is allowed, Whane should be allowed too.
Wayne has a point. If confused tree is allowed, Whane should be allowed too (even though it can be moved to a hot area). Banning then shouldn't be used without a warning. It was the arbitrary use of the rules that lead him to the logic conclusion that his char was as legal as the tree (he didn't do anything to keep Whane's existence in secret, he told everyone about it).
Re: [BAN] whane banned for AFK healing
Tree mainly heals people emerging out of the menhir. Freshly dead people do not give xp, and few people will freely heal them.
Whane, on the other hand, is in a place where people kill, get injured, and ask for healing. Whane gets xp for bothealing, but Tree doesn't.
Whane, on the other hand, is in a place where people kill, get injured, and ask for healing. Whane gets xp for bothealing, but Tree doesn't.
Erienne in game.
Re: [BAN] whane banned for AFK healing
Wayne has a point.. wrong.Macias_P wrote:True, this is not a discussion forum: Then move the thread to player talk so messages don't get lost.
I can see the point in not allowing an auto-healing client. But allowing other bots like confused tree to do so is just plain wrong, officially allowed or not. Either make it an NPC or don't allow it to heal. Rules are rules, and should apply to anyone. If Confused tree is allowed, Whane should be allowed too.
Wayne has a point. If confused tree is allowed, Whane should be allowed too (even though it can be moved to a hot area). Banning then shouldn't be used without a warning. It was the arbitrary use of the rules that lead him to the logic conclusion that his char was as legal as the tree (he didn't do anything to keep Whane's existence in secret, he told everyone about it).
"It doesn't matter.. that doesn't matter, those don't matter" is what you basically just said.
Hm, so the creators and admins of this game can't decide to make a rule that APPROVED bots are allowed, and that they can choose which are APPROVED.
Hm..
Re: [BAN] whane banned for AFK healing
Yes, mainly people from the menhir, but also low level chars that come out from the forest. Those give xp, very little xp. You know that as well as i do. I think I also mentioned that whane could be moved to a hot zone, so don't be unfair.Tree mainly heals people emerging out of the menhir. Freshly dead people do not give xp, and few people will freely heal them.
Wrong... That's not what i said. I just said that rules should be applied to everyone, and exceptions lead to confusion. Please don't start with straw man fallacies. ¿The "approved bots" rule means to do whatever is forbidden with permission? That's just crap. But if applied, yes, Wayne has a point."It doesn't matter.. that doesn't matter, those don't matter" is what you basically just said.
If a simple rule can be ignored using the allowed bullshit clause, then it is more difficult for people to understand why they must obey rules. As i said (and you chose to ignore), tree should be made an NPC or not allowed to heal. Meanwhile, maybe whane should be explained why he can't bot-heal before being banned. Simple enough or you will misinterpret it again?
Re: [BAN] whane banned for AFK healing
(I'm going to hope this gets moved, sorry for replying in this forum!)
Another difference between Confused Tree and whane is that Tree sits in town and doesn't move. It isn't using the exp gained for fighting and isn't trying to level up or anything. It's staying in a stationary place 24/7, reaping no benefits from the experience and (again) not taking xp from other people trying to heal.Yes, mainly people from the menhir, but also low level chars that come out from the forest. Those give xp, very little xp.
-Just Me
Re: 'whane' banned for AFK healing
I also hope the comments get moved to pt.
No one said there are not differences. The problem are the similarities. It is a bot, 24/7, as you say, requires afk activity. He does get xp and he'll level even if he doesn't want to. There will be benefits, it doesn't matter if that isn't it's purpose. Not taking other player's xp... With Whane, only players that ask for healing with the specific word (heal) will get healed, same happens with tree. Many players helped protecting whane while getting it into position (crossing the graveyard with a mage is not an easy task), it was kind of a public service. So they didn't feel like their benefits were reapead.
Again, I am not saying Whane should bot-heal. GM's are in their right to interpret the rules. I'm saying it's quite understandable why whane's owner thought it was all right to place a healing bot next to the graveyard wall.
- It would surely help other players.
- No items or cash.
- No secrecy or hiding, providing a public service for whoever needs it.
The only real problem seems to be that he will get (much) more exp than Tree. About some other generic player not getting that exp, same as Tree (It is much easier and faster to say "heal" to a bot than asking and/or relying on unknown players).
A ban without a warning is too much punishment for a misunderstanding of a rule when this rule is not applied in special "approved" cases. I could mention some hardcore bots who were reinstated with silly excuses (I slept over the keyboard is my favourite). And no, I won't tell the names of the players and GM's involved, they know who they are. If he was warned and persisted that is another matter, but that didn't happen.
No one said there are not differences. The problem are the similarities. It is a bot, 24/7, as you say, requires afk activity. He does get xp and he'll level even if he doesn't want to. There will be benefits, it doesn't matter if that isn't it's purpose. Not taking other player's xp... With Whane, only players that ask for healing with the specific word (heal) will get healed, same happens with tree. Many players helped protecting whane while getting it into position (crossing the graveyard with a mage is not an easy task), it was kind of a public service. So they didn't feel like their benefits were reapead.
Again, I am not saying Whane should bot-heal. GM's are in their right to interpret the rules. I'm saying it's quite understandable why whane's owner thought it was all right to place a healing bot next to the graveyard wall.
- It would surely help other players.
- No items or cash.
- No secrecy or hiding, providing a public service for whoever needs it.
The only real problem seems to be that he will get (much) more exp than Tree. About some other generic player not getting that exp, same as Tree (It is much easier and faster to say "heal" to a bot than asking and/or relying on unknown players).
A ban without a warning is too much punishment for a misunderstanding of a rule when this rule is not applied in special "approved" cases. I could mention some hardcore bots who were reinstated with silly excuses (I slept over the keyboard is my favourite). And no, I won't tell the names of the players and GM's involved, they know who they are. If he was warned and persisted that is another matter, but that didn't happen.
Re: 'whane' banned for AFK healing
Eh, wayne is level 94. Whane obviously isn't being operated in order to just gain levels - I've never seen whane in combat. He is honestly running it as a public service. Before he was banned, I attempted to give him several hard spikes for casting protection on me - he declined, stating that it was a public service and no repayment was necessary. I think perhaps he should have sought to get his bot approved, but I don't believe he knew of any approval process before he instituted whane.
Re: 'whane' banned for AFK healing
The rules of the game are a little shaky, let's admit that. Less than 10 generic laws leave many situations uncovered and concerning TMW rules, there is plenty of room for improvement.
The botting rule states: "any AFK activity" but we have Melkior's approved tree bot which gets occasional xp from healing (for example when people are hunting flowers in Hurnscald at the old woman - conveniently close to the menhir, very good respawn rate and reasonable XP). We also have Turmfalke's TradeBot which turns items into profit while AFK. Personally I think it's very convenient to make your stuff available (overpriced or not) and just collect at the end of the day instead of looking for customers, advertising or answering other people's requests - activities that require time and effort. The tree is almost like a player controlled NPC, but TradeBot gives genuine advantages to the owner and still, it's allowed because the other players have the advantage of being able to easily buy the items they need.
Whane (the bot) gave advantages to players and the owner (about at the same rate as TradeBot does) and non-magical players welcomed it in the graveyard. Whane (the bot) was unfair to other healers about as much as the TradeBot is a little unfair to other non-bot merchants. It was reasonable to assume that there is nothing wrong with having it there especially because we don't have a menhir there, because we can no longer heal ourselves with #inma and also because the monsters are strong, there are lots of them and the graveyard is very far from the closest menhir.
My suggestions are:
- unban Whane and leave him with a warning to stop bot-healing (it's only fair this way. This was a new situation and even if the law was clear, it was not clearly applied to the letter. I'm sure its purpose was not to make illegal XP, but to help others. It shouldn't be treated like an AFK-fighting bot, at least not without warning and on the first offense, as it happened in this case.)
- give us a menhir and a shop in the Graveyard or swamp
- make the botting law more accurate (to show why TradeBot and the tree are legal while Whane is not), OR change the law to "any bot except funbots which give no advantages whatsoever to their owner" (sorry but in this case we lose tree healing and TradeBot has to go), OR reinforce it to the letter by removing all allowed bots (present and future)
The botting rule states: "any AFK activity" but we have Melkior's approved tree bot which gets occasional xp from healing (for example when people are hunting flowers in Hurnscald at the old woman - conveniently close to the menhir, very good respawn rate and reasonable XP). We also have Turmfalke's TradeBot which turns items into profit while AFK. Personally I think it's very convenient to make your stuff available (overpriced or not) and just collect at the end of the day instead of looking for customers, advertising or answering other people's requests - activities that require time and effort. The tree is almost like a player controlled NPC, but TradeBot gives genuine advantages to the owner and still, it's allowed because the other players have the advantage of being able to easily buy the items they need.
Whane (the bot) gave advantages to players and the owner (about at the same rate as TradeBot does) and non-magical players welcomed it in the graveyard. Whane (the bot) was unfair to other healers about as much as the TradeBot is a little unfair to other non-bot merchants. It was reasonable to assume that there is nothing wrong with having it there especially because we don't have a menhir there, because we can no longer heal ourselves with #inma and also because the monsters are strong, there are lots of them and the graveyard is very far from the closest menhir.
My suggestions are:
- unban Whane and leave him with a warning to stop bot-healing (it's only fair this way. This was a new situation and even if the law was clear, it was not clearly applied to the letter. I'm sure its purpose was not to make illegal XP, but to help others. It shouldn't be treated like an AFK-fighting bot, at least not without warning and on the first offense, as it happened in this case.)
- give us a menhir and a shop in the Graveyard or swamp
- make the botting law more accurate (to show why TradeBot and the tree are legal while Whane is not), OR change the law to "any bot except funbots which give no advantages whatsoever to their owner" (sorry but in this case we lose tree healing and TradeBot has to go), OR reinforce it to the letter by removing all allowed bots (present and future)
Re: 'whane' banned for AFK healing
Just for the record, I have no control over the TMW's Confused Tree. I gave up the bot, as I pretty much gave up the game as well (or at least actively playing it).Kill3rZ wrote:...but we have Melkior's approved tree bot...
The tree now has a new home and the new owner is doing a great job with it.
To save the new owner from some trouble, and to explain a few things since people are obviously missing a huge point, let me say this:
I have heard comments from people that they saw the tree fighting... Indeed, that's how I leveled it. It's as if people can't tell the difference between some terms. The character isn't a bot if I log into the game with a normal client and go poke a few shrooms with a knife. But the "bot" script, doesn't even allow it to move. It just stands there. So that's a huge difference. If you notice the tree walking around, you'll also notice that it doesn't respond to any commands (unless the person controlling it decides to mess with you).
I have never discussed the tree's healing abilities with someone in charge of the server, but the tree has provided that function in front of three server admins and almost all of the GMs and none of them objected. Had they objected, I would've proposed a compromise. Whenever the tree levels, a GM returns it back to the previous level. It's a minor nuisance, but at least it's fair.
But like I said, I don't own the tree anymore, so it's not my problem.