Bots Warning,

[Kage]

Botting in the game gives an unfair advantage towards fellow players.

I disagree completely. Here's why.

I am working man. I work 8 hours a day as a programmer. When I came home, I either fall dead to bed or relax behind computer surfing web or playing games like TMW. I can play TMW perhaps hour or two per day. Meanwhile, there are players (I don't want to tell the names but I know at least one player like that) that play more that 8 hours a day. He is uneployed so he use it as unfair advantage. Hell, he play all day long. Why? Because he can. I write myself a bot for same reason. Because I can. And because I simply cannot match players like he is. It is also unfair (by your measures).

I don't really think it is unfair. It is the GAME. In game everybody use his own skills to beat other players. Somebody have lots of times, somebody has talent, somebody is skilled in trade, etc.

I can understand the point of this argument, but there are some flaws. First of all people who have all day to play normally don't spend the entire time killing bats. This is a very grinding activity, and it is boring. So while they may play 8 hours a day, they won't spend the entire time grinding and killing monsters over and over. Secondly, if you spend the entire day working, you get paid, someone who is unemployed does not get this benefit. So not only do you get to play as much as another person, you also get the benefits of having a job. This effectively says I work for 8 hours AND play for 8 hours, while the other people are only able to do one or the other.

But assuming these arguments I presented you are flawed in some way, there are several reasons why botting is bad other then giving a unfair advantage.

The main reason I (and I think other devs) oppose it is because it devalues game play. The main point of playing MMORPGs is the interaction with other players. Bots are unable to participate in intelligent conversations.

Now lets imagine if botting was allowed, good chance a large percentage of the population would bot. The low percentage that doesn't, will become bored with the game because the only thing they would get to do is talk to bots. So thus they would leave. At this point all this leaves is the bots. So when a new player comes along and start trying to talk to people, he would never get a response, or at lest not a intelligent one. And thus he will either stop playing, or just create his own bot.

At this point the only thing people are doing is.... botting... which would devalue the game to the point where we might as well give infinite money and power to everyone. Since there would be no difference.

[hewhohasalongname]

Botting in the game gives an unfair advantage towards fellow players.

I disagree completely. Here's why.

I am working man. I work 8 hours a day as a programmer. When I came home, I either fall dead to bed or relax behind computer surfing web or playing games like TMW. I can play TMW perhaps hour or two per day. Meanwhile, there are players (I don't want to tell the names but I know at least one player like that) that play more that 8 hours a day. He is uneployed so he use it as unfair advantage. Hell, he play all day long. Why? Because he can. I write myself a bot for same reason. Because I can. And because I simply cannot match players like he is. It is also unfair (by your measures).

I don't really think it is unfair. It is the GAME. In game everybody use his own skills to beat other players. Somebody have lots of times, somebody has talent, somebody is skilled in trade, etc.

I can understand the point of this argument, but there are some flaws. First of all people who have all day to play normally don't spend the entire time killing bats. This is a very grinding activity, and it is boring. So while they may play 8 hours a day, they won't spend the entire time grinding and killing monsters over and over. Secondly, if you spend the entire day working, you get paid, someone who is unemployed does not get this benefit. So not only do you get to play as much as another person, you also get the benefits of having a job. This effectively says I work for 8 hours AND play for 8 hours, while the other people are only able to do one or the other.

But assuming these arguments I presented you are flawed in some way, there are several reasons why botting is bad other then giving a unfair advantage.

The main reason I (and I think other devs) oppose it is because it devalues game play. The main point of playing MMORPGs is the interaction with other players. Bots are unable to participate in intelligent conversations.

Now lets imagine if botting was allowed, good chance a large percentage of the population would bot. The low percentage that doesn't, will become bored with the game because the only thing they would get to do is talk to bots. So thus they would leave. At this point all this leaves is the bots. So when a new player comes along and start trying to talk to people, he would never get a response, or at lest not a intelligent one. And thus he will either stop playing, or just create his own bot.

At this point the only thing people are doing is.... botting... which would devalue the game to the point where we might as well give infinite money and power to everyone. Since there would be no difference.

Interesting opinion....
so, in this and that amount of years, when we finally make the impossible possible and make a machine that can actually interact with a player, it's that point where you would find that bots are alright just because they can talk back and "fool some or all people into thinking that they speak with a real life human for at least a couple of minutes"?

well I find that just wrong.
while those bots, as soon as they'll reach such a level, will be bound to be used as npcs in any decent game, botting should still not be allowed even at that point.
for many reasons: (answers below are a comment to the botter's opinion)
A. it's a shortcut, you don't put the efforts, it's not your skill nor talent, it's great that you could write such npc which nowadays is but a mere dream, but it's not great that instead of becoming a part of the program (the game) it starts benefiting you.
it's the bot's work, so if you did not play on that bot at all and did not take a thing from it nor ever use his account, this could be equal to calling the bot "npc" and that would be surpass "point A" (and will fail reason number 2 below), however if you simply harvest the fruits of the bot's labor, it's just as if you'd pay someone to play for you.
since you work, you could of course do that and it wouldn't be against the rules, but wouldn't it just be sad?
maybe the bot should also tell you how fun it was for it to play?

B. even with such highly advanced npcs having too many of them is nothing but damage.
assume a human player would have to struggle to kill a monster, not because the monster is hard to kill but because there are enough bots to reach all the monsters long before him due to far faster response.
you would then have to enlarge the amount of monsters in each map, this means more data transfer which either means a better server - more money or lag for the actual players, so you either hurt the developers or the players and that's just plain bad, it wouldn't of course happen if those were actual humans as they have quite a short attention span so if we assume N players exist then if they are all human and all are training in the same place, were they human the place would have about N/5~N/10 players at any given time in which they are logged (most players are just chatting, trading, traveling, and wasting time in general), however the bots would be there all the time, meaning 5-10 times more players and that's enough for a normal human to figure he just can't train there.

this really works much better for a "why bots shouldn't be allowed in far more populated mmos" rather than tmw

C. assume a player is decent.
he has a bot just in case and wish to spend his time to maximize profits.
obviously a bot would be a better level upper so it might be the best to use his actual online time for other things.
such as trading between players or chatting or whatever, not grinding, not actually playing a major part of the game.
for if that's the goal right now, it's much better to let the bot do it, and either watch it, bored, or well, not watch it
now if we assume person A had his bot up and running 23 hours and person B had it running 16 hours, because B has a lot of spare time and A doesn't.
then A would have:
1. a higher rank
2. obviously a lot more rares and money
and now A can travel to better locations and deal with end-game parts, because his rank allows it.
B is in a major disadvantage only capable of linking his time for trading the much less rares he has, trying to profit out of that just enough to match player A, and establish social links, but there it's only that effective in those 8 hours he spends.
so player B seems to be on the losing edge although he wasted more time actually playing the game
he then figures he should pump the amount of time the bot plays.
he will soon draw near the amount of time A is playing
meanwhile he would just go play in another game probably, and his advantage of not being occupied has been shattered to pieces.

now, you might find it reasonable however a game needs to compete with other games, if you are a "1-2 hours a day or you'll be losing from it" game, then you lose to other games which allow you to better use your time resource

so you could see that this will do nothing but reduce the amount of players, let alone reduce the amount of time actually played by rational players, resulting in the mmo becoming very bot-dominated.
and that's when we assumed that NOTHING damaged your social linking as the bots are perfectly capable of at least entertaining you as much as a normal human would.
simply because it's obviously more effective to use the bot and in that case, we are back to B again, this would resolve in the devs being forced to spend more money on the servers than they already do because of higher monster-slaying activity rather than a good natural spread of actions taken by the players on different maps.

as a matter of fact some mmos today feature LEGAL BOTS , and well, they fail epicly.
for starters since it's easy to level with bots, and the game can't be over in days , the exp in those games is insanely hard to grind, so unless you actually let the bot work 24/7 , you can't level, as even the quests which give much more exp don't give the same effect as the bot would have if he just grinded all that time.
and since those bots aren't the futuristic ones we started with, they are also social-hells.
maybe you should play those a little and understand why humanity just doesn't want to embrace botting as playing.

[Kage]

Interesting opinion....
so, in this and that amount of years, when we finally make the impossible possible and make a machine that can actually interact with a player, it's that point where you would find that bots are alright just because they can talk back and "fool some or all people into thinking that they speak with a real life human for at least a couple of minutes"?

Interesting you should bring this up. First of all, humans rarely only talk to each other for a couple of minutes. So if they could only fool for a couple of minutes then the fundamental problem still exist.

But lets assume that the bot does far more then that. Lets say it can form its own opinions, create its own ideas, and even have its own dreams. At this point (if it is or is not reachable) the bot should no longer be considered as a tool, or even as a non-living object.

IMO at this point the bot would be self-aware, and if anyone used them unwillingly to progress in a game. Or even to turn off their computer. They should be charged as a criminal on the highest possible level.

well I find that just wrong.
while those bots, as soon as they'll reach such a level, will be bound to be used as npcs in any decent game, botting should still not be allowed even at that point.
for many reasons: (answers below are a comment to the botter's opinion)
A. it's a shortcut, you don't put the efforts, it's not your skill nor talent, it's great that you could write such npc which nowadays is but a mere dream, but it's not great that instead of becoming a part of the program (the game) it starts benefiting you.
it's the bot's work, so if you did not play on that bot at all and did not take a thing from it nor ever use his account, this could be equal to calling the bot "npc" and that would be surpass "point A" (and will fail reason number 2 below), however if you simply harvest the fruits of the bot's labor, it's just as if you'd pay someone to play for you.
since you work, you could of course do that and it wouldn't be against the rules, but wouldn't it just be sad?
maybe the bot should also tell you how fun it was for it to play?

If a AI of this level could exist, and did, I would have no problem with them playing the game. However as stated before, if the bot would be playing for a human's benefit, I believe it must do so willing.

We almost must assume that if the bot was able to do so willing, then it might even have a dream or want to create its own char, for its own benefit. We should allow of a being of this nature to indulged in its dream.

B. even with such highly advanced npcs having too many of them is nothing but damage.
assume a human player would have to struggle to kill a monster, not because the monster is hard to kill but because there are enough bots to reach all the monsters long before him due to far faster response.
you would then have to enlarge the amount of monsters in each map, this means more data transfer which either means a better server - more money or lag for the actual players, so you either hurt the developers or the players and that's just plain bad, it wouldn't of course happen if those were actual humans as they have quite a short attention span so if we assume N players exist then if they are all human and all are training in the same place, were they human the place would have about N/5~N/10 players at any given time in which they are logged (most players are just chatting, trading, traveling, and wasting time in general), however the bots would be there all the time, meaning 5-10 times more players and that's enough for a normal human to figure he just can't train there.

this really works much better for a "why bots shouldn't be allowed in far more populated mmos" rather than tmw

While allowing bots to create its own char, we might wish to limit it to only controlling one or two at a time. For we can not predict the nature of this high functioning AI, it might have the ability to control hundreds of chars at the same time, while being able to seem like a separate entity. Though how we would enforce this is unknown to me.

C. assume a player is decent.
he has a bot just in case and wish to spend his time to maximize profits.
obviously a bot would be a better level upper so it might be the best to use his actual online time for other things.
such as trading between players or chatting or whatever, not grinding, not actually playing a major part of the game.
for if that's the goal right now, it's much better to let the bot do it, and either watch it, bored, or well, not watch it
now if we assume person A had his bot up and running 23 hours and person B had it running 16 hours, because B has a lot of spare time and A doesn't.
then A would have:
1. a higher rank
2. obviously a lot more rares and money
and now A can travel to better locations and deal with end-game parts, because his rank allows it.
B is in a major disadvantage only capable of linking his time for trading the much less rares he has, trying to profit out of that just enough to match player A, and establish social links, but there it's only that effective in those 8 hours he spends.
so player B seems to be on the losing edge although he wasted more time actually playing the game
he then figures he should pump the amount of time the bot plays.
he will soon draw near the amount of time A is playing
meanwhile he would just go play in another game probably, and his advantage of not being occupied has been shattered to pieces.

Yes, how far you progress in the game depends on how much time you invest in it. As any other game for the most part. It just happens that this game is more then a game, its also a social network. So if your only working with the social network part of the game, and less with the gaming part of the game, you will not progress as far.

now, you might find it reasonable however a game needs to compete with other games, if you are a "1-2 hours a day or you'll be losing from it" game, then you lose to other games which allow you to better use your time resource

We don't actually have a need to compete with other games. This game is not for profit, and if people choose to play other games, well... the administration and devs don't really care that much. Once you knowledge this, then you realize that the more players a game has, well... the better the game must be (though this is not always the case). So developers do like to see growth and hate to see decline in user base, but we don't get paid based on it, so if it grows it just shows us we are doing a good job, and that is pretty much it.

so you could see that this will do nothing but reduce the amount of players, let alone reduce the amount of time actually played by rational players, resulting in the mmo becoming very bot-dominated.
and that's when we assumed that NOTHING damaged your social linking as the bots are perfectly capable of at least entertaining you as much as a normal human would.
simply because it's obviously more effective to use the bot and in that case, we are back to B again, this would resolve in the devs being forced to spend more money on the servers than they already do because of higher monster-slaying activity rather than a good natural spread of actions taken by the players on different maps.

Like I said, if bots are able to think on a somewhat comparable level as humans, I personally would not have a issue with them playing. But if they are unwilling being forced to play for a human. That should be considered a crime.

as a matter of fact some mmos today feature LEGAL BOTS , and well, they fail epicly.
for starters since it's easy to level with bots, and the game can't be over in days , the exp in those games is insanely hard to grind, so unless you actually let the bot work 24/7 , you can't level, as even the quests which give much more exp don't give the same effect as the bot would have if he just grinded all that time.
and since those bots aren't the futuristic ones we started with, they are also social-hells.
maybe you should play those a little and understand why humanity just doesn't want to embrace botting as playing.

I think you are referring to the game guild wars. While I see the advantage of providing players with bots to help them advance in the game. I also believe that when you have to depend on another human (or intelligent being), you form a bond with them, or you are pushed away from them. In other words, you develop friends, and foes. Which when you bring that into the mix, makes the game much more interesting.

While I have formed bonds with AIs/NPC before (such as Midna from LoZ:TP), the time it takes to create it in a free range game like TMW increase exponentially with the length of the bond. So until computers get fast enough, and someone develops a model for a program with free will (or at lest what we consider to be free will), I am not going to worry my self too much on the idea of bots in games.

[hewhohasalongname]

Interesting you should bring this up. First of all, humans rarely only talk to each other for a couple of minutes. So if they could only fool for a couple of minutes then the fundamental problem still exist.

But lets assume that the bot does far more then that. Lets say it can form its own opinions, create its own ideas, and even have its own dreams. At this point (if it is or is not reachable) the bot should no longer be considered as a tool, or even as a non-living object.

IMO at this point the bot would be self-aware, and if anyone used them unwillingly to progress in a game. Or even to turn off their computer. They should be charged as a criminal on the highest possible level.

the problem with sci-fi "bots attack" movies is that they always implement "feelings" to the bots , and I highly doubt that could even be possible, because bots programming is completely rational while feelings are the exact opposite
you could imitate them, but that's just you the programmer deciding for your bot to act a certain feeling.
it by no means actually feels that, not can it come up with a dream, what it can do is have a function that under the input of this and that will output the view of the programmer about what dreams should be formed under such circumstances.

charging people with crimes for turning off their computers... come on...
the hell with free will, dreams and emotions, the perfect bot is perfectly rational and is driven by nothing but logic and probabilities, unlike a human it can't feel pain and doesn't fear death or anything, you can't think of it as a living being even if you could at some point think of it as the perfect human.
smarter, faster, brighter than you, and yet most likely, just not as creative, but hi, a lot of people aren't creative.

If a AI of this level could exist, and did, I would have no problem with them playing the game. However as stated before, if the bot would be playing for a human's benefit, I believe it must do so willing.

We almost must assume that if the bot was able to do so willing, then it might even have a dream or want to create its own char, for its own benefit. We should allow of a being of this nature to indulged in its dream.

honestly? I'd erase the whole free will and self-needs functions..
remember, the whole point of them is to serve us, not to live, we can make that type on our own.
and beside, just imagine what will happen if you did implement free will?
you'd be kicked out of your own planet, you'd be futile compared to them
but really I am simply suggesting the end of the greatest challenge in the computer science field, a machine capable of 100% nothing but talking back like a human, and happen to be targeting bats all day long without questioning it

While allowing bots to create its own char, we might wish to limit it to only controlling one or two at a time. For we can not predict the nature of this high functioning AI, it might have the ability to control hundreds of chars at the same time, while being able to seem like a separate entity. Though how we would enforce this is unknown to me.

wouldn't you rather have say... 1 character online at a time per actual human and that char being...the human?
really... a human can't compete with AI on bat hunting or anything-else-hunting
and a bot could never really have emotions, it could just as easily play tic tac toe with himself all day long he wouldn't know the difference, this really betrays the entire concept of games as things that are designed for amusement rather than... things that require a fairly good computer so you could run 10-20 AIs to play for you(?!)

Yes, how far you progress in the game depends on how much time you invest in it. As any other game for the most part. It just happens that this game is more then a game, its also a social network. So if your only working with the social network part of the game, and less with the gaming part of the game, you will not progress as far.

agreed but really..that wasn't at all the point of point C, the point of point C was to show that a human just can't compete with the bot and so will be forced to play the game a lesser amount of time, thus again, betraying the reason the game exists.

We don't actually have a need to compete with other games. This game is not for profit, and if people choose to play other games, well... the administration and devs don't really care that much. Once you knowledge this, then you realize that the more players a game has, well... the better the game must be (though this is not always the case). So developers do like to see growth and hate to see decline in user base, but we don't get paid based on it, so if it grows it just shows us we are doing a good job, and that is pretty much it.

obviously, but you do wish to have at least 1 player, so I would assume that if bots were forcing people to play less, you would care at one point or another, I mean it's one thing to really go head on with other games, it's another to lose players just because you allow this and that to happen
and since you want to be "doing a good job" as I suppose you do, you'd then be taking actions.
really I doubt anyone wants to trash his work just so a bundle of bits and bytes could roam around in his creation possibly emulating human chatter.

Like I said, if bots are able to think on a somewhat comparable level as humans, I personally would not have a issue with them playing. But if they are unwilling being forced to play for a human. That should be considered a crime.

again the free will? why would anyone program free will?!

I think you are referring to the game guild wars. While I see the advantage of providing players with bots to help them advance in the game. I also believe that when you have to depend on another human (or intelligent being), you form a bond with them, or you are pushed away from them. In other words, you develop friends, and foes. Which when you bring that into the mix, makes the game much more interesting.

While I have formed bonds with AIs/NPC before (such as Midna from LoZ:TP), the time it takes to create it in a free range game like TMW increase exponentially with the length of the bond. So until computers get fast enough, and someone develops a model for a program with free will (or at lest what we consider to be free will), I am not going to worry my self too much on the idea of bots in games.

perfect world clones came to mind there, didn't know guild wars now feature bots, horrible to hear really...
but yes I am completely against letting them roam around even when they learned to talk
and if anyone is going to give them free will , well he should really see what happens in just about every sci-fi movie that ever discussed robots that have that annoying free will and emotions function

let's sharpen this a bit more, here is a really dumb conversation:

Human: wanna kill some bats alice?
ALICE: I am not capable of killing anything.
Human: oh come on you newbie just click on it!
ALICE: Yippee! I haven't heard anything like that before: unknown person said I newbie just click on it.
Human: so are you going to try grinding some bats with me?
ALICE: Right on. That was my original intention.
Human: alrighty let's do it
ALICE: I am agreeable to that.
Human: so where are you from alice?
ALICE: Great. I am originally from Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. Now I live in Oakland, California. Where are you?
Human: the mana world, I am the confused tree!
ALICE: I hear you.
Human: say do you happen to be a bot?
ALICE:" do you happen to be a bot".
Human: don't you mock me alice
ALICE: What's my reason to mock you?

now as you can see , I am really forcing myself into making alice sound remotely reasonable but that's alright
now alice is obviously not going to mind if I said...
Human: alice you suck I am going to turn your power off now
ALICE: Right now? That's me. I categorize you as an "abusive client." Would you recommend this action to a friend?

or would she... darn you alice... darn you...
...I am the abusive client!?... I'll tell you what I am going to recommend...
Human: I recommend you bow down to me miss, I am a human damn it!
ALICE: I will take that under advisement.

look! she is being reasonable!

anyway, assume alice made sense more than she does now,(even though she already makes much more sense than a lot of kids I have tried talking to really) would you let alice kill your bats?

[Link , hero of time]

zefram wrote:
Quote:
Botting in the game gives an unfair advantage towards fellow players.

I disagree completely. Here's why.

I am working man. I work 8 hours a day as a programmer. When I came home, I either fall dead to bed or relax behind computer surfing web or playing games like TMW. I can play TMW perhaps hour or two per day. Meanwhile, there are players (I don't want to tell the names but I know at least one player like that) that play more that 8 hours a day. He is uneployed so he use it as unfair advantage. Hell, he play all day long. Why? Because he can. I write myself a bot for same reason. Because I can. And because I simply cannot match players like he is. It is also unfair (by your measures).

I don't really think it is unfair. It is the GAME. In game everybody use his own skills to beat other players. Somebody have lots of times, somebody has talent, somebody is skilled in trade, etc.



Nicely put.



Top

muffel
Post subject: Re: Bots Warning,Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:20 pm

Peon


Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:37 pm
Posts: 6
zefram wrote:
Quote:
Botting in the game gives an unfair advantage towards fellow players.

I disagree completely. Here's why.

I am working man. I work 8 hours a day as a programmer. When I came home, I either fall dead to bed or relax behind computer surfing web or playing games like TMW. I can play TMW perhaps hour or two per day. Meanwhile, there are players (I don't want to tell the names but I know at least one player like that) that play more that 8 hours a day. He is uneployed so he use it as unfair advantage. Hell, he play all day long. Why? Because he can. I write myself a bot for same reason. Because I can. And because I simply cannot match players like he is. It is also unfair (by your measures).

I don't really think it is unfair. It is the GAME. In game everybody use his own skills to beat other players. Somebody have lots of times, somebody has talent, somebody is skilled in trade, etc.


So you think for example it should also be allowed for GMs to abuse their power for their own (or friends), just because they have the "skill" to do it?



Top

Lord of the Flies
Post subject: Re: Bots Warning,Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:06 pm

Peon



Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:48 pm
Posts: 8
muffel wrote:
zefram wrote:
Quote:
Botting in the game gives an unfair advantage towards fellow players.

I disagree completely. Here's why.

I am working man. I work 8 hours a day as a programmer. When I came home, I either fall dead to bed or relax behind computer surfing web or playing games like TMW. I can play TMW perhaps hour or two per day. Meanwhile, there are players (I don't want to tell the names but I know at least one player like that) that play more that 8 hours a day. He is uneployed so he use it as unfair advantage. Hell, he play all day long. Why? Because he can. I write myself a bot for same reason. Because I can. And because I simply cannot match players like he is. It is also unfair (by your measures).

I don't really think it is unfair. It is the GAME. In game everybody use his own skills to beat other players. Somebody have lots of times, somebody has talent, somebody is skilled in trade, etc.


So you think for example it should also be allowed for GMs to abuse their power for their own (or friends), just because they have the "skill" to do it?


That is a retard argument. You lose.



Top

Kage
Post subject: Re: Bots Warning,Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:46 pm

TMW Developer



Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 5:12 pm
Posts: 519
zefram wrote:
Quote:
Botting in the game gives an unfair advantage towards fellow players.

I disagree completely. Here's why.

I am working man. I work 8 hours a day as a programmer. When I came home, I either fall dead to bed or relax behind computer surfing web or playing games like TMW. I can play TMW perhaps hour or two per day. Meanwhile, there are players (I don't want to tell the names but I know at least one player like that) that play more that 8 hours a day. He is uneployed so he use it as unfair advantage. Hell, he play all day long. Why? Because he can. I write myself a bot for same reason. Because I can. And because I simply cannot match players like he is. It is also unfair (by your measures).

I don't really think it is unfair. It is the GAME. In game everybody use his own skills to beat other players. Somebody have lots of times, somebody has talent, somebody is skilled in trade, etc.


I can understand the point of this argument, but there are some flaws. First of all people who have all day to play normally don't spend the entire time killing bats. This is a very grinding activity, and it is boring. So while they may play 8 hours a day, they won't spend the entire time grinding and killing monsters over and over. Secondly, if you spend the entire day working, you get paid, someone who is unemployed does not get this benefit. So not only do you get to play as much as another person, you also get the benefits of having a job. This effectively says I work for 8 hours AND play for 8 hours, while the other people are only able to do one or the other.

But assuming these arguments I presented you are flawed in some way, there are several reasons why botting is bad other then giving a unfair advantage.

The main reason I (and I think other devs) oppose it is because it devalues game play. The main point of playing MMORPGs is the interaction with other players. Bots are unable to participate in intelligent conversations.

Now lets imagine if botting was allowed, good chance a large percentage of the population would bot. The low percentage that doesn't, will become bored with the game because the only thing they would get to do is talk to bots. So thus they would leave. At this point all this leaves is the bots. So when a new player comes along and start trying to talk to people, he would never get a response, or at lest not a intelligent one. And thus he will either stop playing, or just create his own bot.

At this point the only thing people are doing is.... botting... which would devalue the game to the point where we might as well give infinite money and power to everyone. Since there would be no difference.

_________________
<Kage_Jittai> ... are you saying I am elite
<thorbjorn> Yes.


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hewhohasalongname
Post subject: Re: Bots Warning,Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:56 pm

Peon


Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:41 am
Posts: 12
Kage wrote:
zefram wrote:
Quote:
Botting in the game gives an unfair advantage towards fellow players.

I disagree completely. Here's why.

I am working man. I work 8 hours a day as a programmer. When I came home, I either fall dead to bed or relax behind computer surfing web or playing games like TMW. I can play TMW perhaps hour or two per day. Meanwhile, there are players (I don't want to tell the names but I know at least one player like that) that play more that 8 hours a day. He is uneployed so he use it as unfair advantage. Hell, he play all day long. Why? Because he can. I write myself a bot for same reason. Because I can. And because I simply cannot match players like he is. It is also unfair (by your measures).

I don't really think it is unfair. It is the GAME. In game everybody use his own skills to beat other players. Somebody have lots of times, somebody has talent, somebody is skilled in trade, etc.


I can understand the point of this argument, but there are some flaws. First of all people who have all day to play normally don't spend the entire time killing bats. This is a very grinding activity, and it is boring. So while they may play 8 hours a day, they won't spend the entire time grinding and killing monsters over and over. Secondly, if you spend the entire day working, you get paid, someone who is unemployed does not get this benefit. So not only do you get to play as much as another person, you also get the benefits of having a job. This effectively says I work for 8 hours AND play for 8 hours, while the other people are only able to do one or the other.

But assuming these arguments I presented you are flawed in some way, there are several reasons why botting is bad other then giving a unfair advantage.

The main reason I (and I think other devs) oppose it is because it devalues game play. The main point of playing MMORPGs is the interaction with other players. Bots are unable to participate in intelligent conversations.

Now lets imagine if botting was allowed, good chance a large percentage of the population would bot. The low percentage that doesn't, will become bored with the game because the only thing they would get to do is talk to bots. So thus they would leave. At this point all this leaves is the bots. So when a new player comes along and start trying to talk to people, he would never get a response, or at lest not a intelligent one. And thus he will either stop playing, or just create his own bot.

At this point the only thing people are doing is.... botting... which would devalue the game to the point where we might as well give infinite money and power to everyone. Since there would be no difference.


Interesting opinion....
so, in this and that amount of years, when we finally make the impossible possible and make a machine that can actually interact with a player, it's that point where you would find that bots are alright just because they can talk back and "fool some or all people into thinking that they speak with a real life human for at least a couple of minutes"?

well I find that just wrong.
while those bots, as soon as they'll reach such a level, will be bound to be used as npcs in any decent game, botting should still not be allowed even at that point.
for many reasons: (answers below are a comment to the botter's opinion)
A. it's a shortcut, you don't put the efforts, it's not your skill nor talent, it's great that you could write such npc which nowadays is but a mere dream, but it's not great that instead of becoming a part of the program (the game) it starts benefiting you.
it's the bot's work, so if you did not play on that bot at all and did not take a thing from it nor ever use his account, this could be equal to calling the bot "npc" and that would be surpass "point A" (and will fail reason number 2 below), however if you simply harvest the fruits of the bot's labor, it's just as if you'd pay someone to play for you.
since you work, you could of course do that and it wouldn't be against the rules, but wouldn't it just be sad?
maybe the bot should also tell you how fun it was for it to play?

B. even with such highly advanced npcs having too many of them is nothing but damage.
assume a human player would have to struggle to kill a monster, not because the monster is hard to kill but because there are enough bots to reach all the monsters long before him due to far faster response.
you would then have to enlarge the amount of monsters in each map, this means more data transfer which either means a better server - more money or lag for the actual players, so you either hurt the developers or the players and that's just plain bad, it wouldn't of course happen if those were actual humans as they have quite a short attention span so if we assume N players exist then if they are all human and all are training in the same place, were they human the place would have about N/5~N/10 players at any given time in which they are logged (most players are just chatting, trading, traveling, and wasting time in general), however the bots would be there all the time, meaning 5-10 times more players and that's enough for a normal human to figure he just can't train there.

this really works much better for a "why bots shouldn't be allowed in far more populated mmos" rather than tmw

C. assume a player is decent.
he has a bot just in case and wish to spend his time to maximize profits.
obviously a bot would be a better level upper so it might be the best to use his actual online time for other things.
such as trading between players or chatting or whatever, not grinding, not actually playing a major part of the game.
for if that's the goal right now, it's much better to let the bot do it, and either watch it, bored, or well, not watch it
now if we assume person A had his bot up and running 23 hours and person B had it running 16 hours, because B has a lot of spare time and A doesn't.
then A would have:
1. a higher rank
2. obviously a lot more rares and money
and now A can travel to better locations and deal with end-game parts, because his rank allows it.
B is in a major disadvantage only capable of linking his time for trading the much less rares he has, trying to profit out of that just enough to match player A, and establish social links, but there it's only that effective in those 8 hours he spends.
so player B seems to be on the losing edge although he wasted more time actually playing the game
he then figures he should pump the amount of time the bot plays.
he will soon draw near the amount of time A is playing
meanwhile he would just go play in another game probably, and his advantage of not being occupied has been shattered to pieces.

now, you might find it reasonable however a game needs to compete with other games, if you are a "1-2 hours a day or you'll be losing from it" game, then you lose to other games which allow you to better use your time resource

so you could see that this will do nothing but reduce the amount of players, let alone reduce the amount of time actually played by rational players, resulting in the mmo becoming very bot-dominated.
and that's when we assumed that NOTHING damaged your social linking as the bots are perfectly capable of at least entertaining you as much as a normal human would.
simply because it's obviously more effective to use the bot and in that case, we are back to B again, this would resolve in the devs being forced to spend more money on the servers than they already do because of higher monster-slaying activity rather than a good natural spread of actions taken by the players on different maps.

as a matter of fact some mmos today feature LEGAL BOTS , and well, they fail epicly.
for starters since it's easy to level with bots, and the game can't be over in days , the exp in those games is insanely hard to grind, so unless you actually let the bot work 24/7 , you can't level, as even the quests which give much more exp don't give the same effect as the bot would have if he just grinded all that time.
and since those bots aren't the futuristic ones we started with, they are also social-hells.
maybe you should play those a little and understand why humanity just doesn't want to embrace botting as playing.



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Kage
Post subject: Re: Bots Warning,Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:25 am

TMW Developer



Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 5:12 pm
Posts: 519
hewhohasalongname wrote:
Interesting opinion....
so, in this and that amount of years, when we finally make the impossible possible and make a machine that can actually interact with a player, it's that point where you would find that bots are alright just because they can talk back and "fool some or all people into thinking that they speak with a real life human for at least a couple of minutes"?


Interesting you should bring this up. First of all, humans rarely only talk to each other for a couple of minutes. So if they could only fool for a couple of minutes then the fundamental problem still exist.

But lets assume that the bot does far more then that. Lets say it can form its own opinions, create its own ideas, and even have its own dreams. At this point (if it is or is not reachable) the bot should no longer be considered as a tool, or even as a non-living object.

IMO at this point the bot would be self-aware, and if anyone used them unwillingly to progress in a game. Or even to turn off their computer. They should be charged as a criminal on the highest possible level.

hewhohasalongname wrote:
well I find that just wrong.
while those bots, as soon as they'll reach such a level, will be bound to be used as npcs in any decent game, botting should still not be allowed even at that point.
for many reasons: (answers below are a comment to the botter's opinion)
A. it's a shortcut, you don't put the efforts, it's not your skill nor talent, it's great that you could write such npc which nowadays is but a mere dream, but it's not great that instead of becoming a part of the program (the game) it starts benefiting you.
it's the bot's work, so if you did not play on that bot at all and did not take a thing from it nor ever use his account, this could be equal to calling the bot "npc" and that would be surpass "point A" (and will fail reason number 2 below), however if you simply harvest the fruits of the bot's labor, it's just as if you'd pay someone to play for you.
since you work, you could of course do that and it wouldn't be against the rules, but wouldn't it just be sad?
maybe the bot should also tell you how fun it was for it to play?


If a AI of this level could exist, and did, I would have no problem with them playing the game. However as stated before, if the bot would be playing for a human's benefit, I believe it must do so willing.

We almost must assume that if the bot was able to do so willing, then it might even have a dream or want to create its own char, for its own benefit. We should allow of a being of this nature to indulged in its dream.

hewhohasalongname wrote:

B. even with such highly advanced npcs having too many of them is nothing but damage.
assume a human player would have to struggle to kill a monster, not because the monster is hard to kill but because there are enough bots to reach all the monsters long before him due to far faster response.
you would then have to enlarge the amount of monsters in each map, this means more data transfer which either means a better server - more money or lag for the actual players, so you either hurt the developers or the players and that's just plain bad, it wouldn't of course happen if those were actual humans as they have quite a short attention span so if we assume N players exist then if they are all human and all are training in the same place, were they human the place would have about N/5~N/10 players at any given time in which they are logged (most players are just chatting, trading, traveling, and wasting time in general), however the bots would be there all the time, meaning 5-10 times more players and that's enough for a normal human to figure he just can't train there.

this really works much better for a "why bots shouldn't be allowed in far more populated mmos" rather than tmw


While allowing bots to create its own char, we might wish to limit it to only controlling one or two at a time. For we can not predict the nature of this high functioning AI, it might have the ability to control hundreds of chars at the same time, while being able to seem like a separate entity. Though how we would enforce this is unknown to me.

hewhohasalongname wrote:

C. assume a player is decent.
he has a bot just in case and wish to spend his time to maximize profits.
obviously a bot would be a better level upper so it might be the best to use his actual online time for other things.
such as trading between players or chatting or whatever, not grinding, not actually playing a major part of the game.
for if that's the goal right now, it's much better to let the bot do it, and either watch it, bored, or well, not watch it
now if we assume person A had his bot up and running 23 hours and person B had it running 16 hours, because B has a lot of spare time and A doesn't.
then A would have:
1. a higher rank
2. obviously a lot more rares and money
and now A can travel to better locations and deal with end-game parts, because his rank allows it.
B is in a major disadvantage only capable of linking his time for trading the much less rares he has, trying to profit out of that just enough to match player A, and establish social links, but there it's only that effective in those 8 hours he spends.
so player B seems to be on the losing edge although he wasted more time actually playing the game
he then figures he should pump the amount of time the bot plays.
he will soon draw near the amount of time A is playing
meanwhile he would just go play in another game probably, and his advantage of not being occupied has been shattered to pieces.


Yes, how far you progress in the game depends on how much time you invest in it. As any other game for the most part. It just happens that this game is more then a game, its also a social network. So if your only working with the social network part of the game, and less with the gaming part of the game, you will not progress as far.

hewhohasalongname wrote:

now, you might find it reasonable however a game needs to compete with other games, if you are a "1-2 hours a day or you'll be losing from it" game, then you lose to other games which allow you to better use your time resource


We don't actually have a need to compete with other games. This game is not for profit, and if people choose to play other games, well... the administration and devs don't really care that much. Once you knowledge this, then you realize that the more players a game has, well... the better the game must be (though this is not always the case). So developers do like to see growth and hate to see decline in user base, but we don't get paid based on it, so if it grows it just shows us we are doing a good job, and that is pretty much it.

hewhohasalongname wrote:
so you could see that this will do nothing but reduce the amount of players, let alone reduce the amount of time actually played by rational players, resulting in the mmo becoming very bot-dominated.
and that's when we assumed that NOTHING damaged your social linking as the bots are perfectly capable of at least entertaining you as much as a normal human would.
simply because it's obviously more effective to use the bot and in that case, we are back to B again, this would resolve in the devs being forced to spend more money on the servers than they already do because of higher monster-slaying activity rather than a good natural spread of actions taken by the players on different maps.


Like I said, if bots are able to think on a somewhat comparable level as humans, I personally would not have a issue with them playing. But if they are unwilling being forced to play for a human. That should be considered a crime.

hewhohasalongname wrote:
as a matter of fact some mmos today feature LEGAL BOTS , and well, they fail epicly.
for starters since it's easy to level with bots, and the game can't be over in days , the exp in those games is insanely hard to grind, so unless you actually let the bot work 24/7 , you can't level, as even the quests which give much more exp don't give the same effect as the bot would have if he just grinded all that time.
and since those bots aren't the futuristic ones we started with, they are also social-hells.
maybe you should play those a little and understand why humanity just doesn't want to embrace botting as playing.


I think you are referring to the game guild wars. While I see the advantage of providing players with bots to help them advance in the game. I also believe that when you have to depend on another human (or intelligent being), you form a bond with them, or you are pushed away from them. In other words, you develop friends, and foes. Which when you bring that into the mix, makes the game much more interesting.

While I have formed bonds with AIs/NPC before (such as Midna from LoZ:TP), the time it takes to create it in a free range game like TMW increase exponentially with the length of the bond. So until computers get fast enough, and someone develops a model for a program with free will (or at lest what we consider to be free will), I am not going to worry my self too much on the idea of bots in games.

_________________
<Kage_Jittai> ... are you saying I am elite
<thorbjorn> Yes.


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hewhohasalongname
Post subject: Re: Bots Warning,Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:51 pm

Peon


Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:41 am
Posts: 12
Kage wrote:
Interesting you should bring this up. First of all, humans rarely only talk to each other for a couple of minutes. So if they could only fool for a couple of minutes then the fundamental problem still exist.

But lets assume that the bot does far more then that. Lets say it can form its own opinions, create its own ideas, and even have its own dreams. At this point (if it is or is not reachable) the bot should no longer be considered as a tool, or even as a non-living object.

IMO at this point the bot would be self-aware, and if anyone used them unwillingly to progress in a game. Or even to turn off their computer. They should be charged as a criminal on the highest possible level.



the problem with sci-fi "bots attack" movies is that they always implement "feelings" to the bots , and I highly doubt that could even be possible, because bots programming is completely rational while feelings are the exact opposite
you could imitate them, but that's just you the programmer deciding for your bot to act a certain feeling.
it by no means actually feels that, not can it come up with a dream, what it can do is have a function that under the input of this and that will output the view of the programmer about what dreams should be formed under such circumstances.

charging people with crimes for turning off their computers... come on...
the hell with free will, dreams and emotions, the perfect bot is perfectly rational and is driven by nothing but logic and probabilities, unlike a human it can't feel pain and doesn't fear death or anything, you can't think of it as a living being even if you could at some point think of it as the perfect human.
smarter, faster, brighter than you, and yet most likely, just not as creative, but hi, a lot of people aren't creative.

Kage wrote:

If a AI of this level could exist, and did, I would have no problem with them playing the game. However as stated before, if the bot would be playing for a human's benefit, I believe it must do so willing.

We almost must assume that if the bot was able to do so willing, then it might even have a dream or want to create its own char, for its own benefit. We should allow of a being of this nature to indulged in its dream.


honestly? I'd erase the whole free will and self-needs functions..
remember, the whole point of them is to serve us, not to live, we can make that type on our own.
and beside, just imagine what will happen if you did implement free will?
you'd be kicked out of your own planet, you'd be futile compared to them
but really I am simply suggesting the end of the greatest challenge in the computer science field, a machine capable of 100% nothing but talking back like a human, and happen to be targeting bats all day long without questioning it

Kage wrote:

While allowing bots to create its own char, we might wish to limit it to only controlling one or two at a time. For we can not predict the nature of this high functioning AI, it might have the ability to control hundreds of chars at the same time, while being able to seem like a separate entity. Though how we would enforce this is unknown to me.


wouldn't you rather have say... 1 character online at a time per actual human and that char being...the human?
really... a human can't compete with AI on bat hunting or anything-else-hunting
and a bot could never really have emotions, it could just as easily play tic tac toe with himself all day long he wouldn't know the difference, this really betrays the entire concept of games as things that are designed for amusement rather than... things that require a fairly good computer so you could run 10-20 AIs to play for you(?!)

Kage wrote:

Yes, how far you progress in the game depends on how much time you invest in it. As any other game for the most part. It just happens that this game is more then a game, its also a social network. So if your only working with the social network part of the game, and less with the gaming part of the game, you will not progress as far.

agreed but really..that wasn't at all the point of point C, the point of point C was to show that a human just can't compete with the bot and so will be forced to play the game a lesser amount of time, thus again, betraying the reason the game exists.

Kage wrote:


We don't actually have a need to compete with other games. This game is not for profit, and if people choose to play other games, well... the administration and devs don't really care that much. Once you knowledge this, then you realize that the more players a game has, well... the better the game must be (though this is not always the case). So developers do like to see growth and hate to see decline in user base, but we don't get paid based on it, so if it grows it just shows us we are doing a good job, and that is pretty much it.



obviously, but you do wish to have at least 1 player, so I would assume that if bots were forcing people to play less, you would care at one point or another, I mean it's one thing to really go head on with other games, it's another to lose players just because you allow this and that to happen
and since you want to be "doing a good job" as I suppose you do, you'd then be taking actions.
really I doubt anyone wants to trash his work just so a bundle of bits and bytes could roam around in his creation possibly emulating human chatter.

Kage wrote:
Like I said, if bots are able to think on a somewhat comparable level as humans, I personally would not have a issue with them playing. But if they are unwilling being forced to play for a human. That should be considered a crime.


again the free will? why would anyone program free will?!

Kage wrote:
I think you are referring to the game guild wars. While I see the advantage of providing players with bots to help them advance in the game. I also believe that when you have to depend on another human (or intelligent being), you form a bond with them, or you are pushed away from them. In other words, you develop friends, and foes. Which when you bring that into the mix, makes the game much more interesting.

While I have formed bonds with AIs/NPC before (such as Midna from LoZ:TP), the time it takes to create it in a free range game like TMW increase exponentially with the length of the bond. So until computers get fast enough, and someone develops a model for a program with free will (or at lest what we consider to be free will), I am not going to worry my self too much on the idea of bots in games.


perfect world clones came to mind there, didn't know guild wars now feature bots, horrible to hear really...
but yes I am completely against letting them roam around even when they learned to talk
and if anyone is going to give them free will , well he should really see what happens in just about every sci-fi movie that ever discussed robots that have that annoying free will and emotions function

let's sharpen this a bit more, here is a really dumb conversation:

Human: wanna kill some bats alice?
ALICE: I am not capable of killing anything.
Human: oh come on you newbie just click on it!
ALICE: Yippee! I haven't heard anything like that before: unknown person said I newbie just click on it.
Human: so are you going to try grinding some bats with me?
ALICE: Right on. That was my original intention.
Human: alrighty let's do it
ALICE: I am agreeable to that.
Human: so where are you from alice?
ALICE: Great. I am originally from Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. Now I live in Oakland, California. Where are you?
Human: the mana world, I am the confused tree!
ALICE: I hear you.
Human: say do you happen to be a bot?
ALICE:" do you happen to be a bot".
Human: don't you mock me alice
ALICE: What's my reason to mock you?

now as you can see , I am really forcing myself into making alice sound remotely reasonable but that's alright
now alice is obviously not going to mind if I said...
Human: alice you suck I am going to turn your power off now
ALICE: Right now? That's me. I categorize you as an "abusive client." Would you recommend this action to a friend?

or would she... darn you alice... darn you...
...I am the abusive client!?... I'll tell you what I am going to recommend...
Human: I recommend you bow down to me miss, I am a human damn it!
ALICE: I will take that under advisement.

look! she is being reasonable!

anyway, assume alice made sense more than she does now,(even though she already makes much more sense than a lot of kids I have tried talking to really) would you let alice kill your bats?

ZZZZZzzzzzzz .....

in "every zelda" begins action with "sleep"

[Crush]

Maybe someone should create a server where botting is not just allowed but even encouraged. That way those people who see botting as a competitive programming challenge can use their bots there and don't disturb the people who want to play legit on the official server.

[Kage]

the problem with sci-fi "bots attack" movies is that they always implement "feelings" to the bots , and I highly doubt that could even be possible, because bots programming is completely rational while feelings are the exact opposite

There are ways to program abstract behavior in computers, this is sometimes called fuzzy logic, and the results of which may not always be rational. And feelings can be rational also, feeling evolved in humans and animals to help protect and guide us. For example, if your partner cheats on you, you will have feelings of betrayal and distrust with them. Those feelings will lead to actions (such as leaving the other person) which is in the best interest for your survival and reproduction.

you could imitate them, but that's just you the programmer deciding for your bot to act a certain feeling.
it by no means actually feels that, not can it come up with a dream, what it can do is have a function that under the input of this and that will output the view of the programmer about what dreams should be formed under such circumstances.

Well... we have to ask our self this question... what exactly are feelings?

Lets say someone has major depression disorder, they often "feel" like crap, and they even might have "desires" to kill them self. However, there is medication to control this, which is just a chemical that acts on the brain. So if a chemical can alter ones feelings and even desires, its reasonable to assume those feelings and desires are also chemical processes. At which point, you have to ask your self, is the brain just a large, complex, chemical reaction. If it is, then its reasonable to assume that everything in the brain is a predictable, mathematical, process. Even if it is way beyond our ability to do so, and even if we could, the predictions would likely change its own future.

So if you believe this, the brain is subject to the same basic laws of math that computer works by. So if this is true, then it only takes a lot math, done in the right order, to produce behavior of the brain.

charging people with crimes for turning off their computers... come on...
the hell with free will, dreams and emotions, the perfect bot is perfectly rational and is driven by nothing but logic and probabilities, unlike a human it can't feel pain and doesn't fear death or anything, you can't think of it as a living being even if you could at some point think of it as the perfect human.
smarter, faster, brighter than you, and yet most likely, just not as creative, but hi, a lot of people aren't creative.

Actually this is a serious philosophic and ethical issue. Lets assume my reasoning above is correct, and a computer model could be developed to produce behavior as seen in the brain. What then? Do we consider this being a person? What rights would we be obligated to provide them with? Maybe they don't have the same outlook of life and death as we do. Maybe they don't care if they blink out of existence? Maybe they will have different opinions on the subject.

I personally think they would not like being controlled for the benefit of a human. Or maybe they will look to that human as their parent, or even god, in which they might have no issues.

The truth is, we don't even have the ability to theorize what a being of this nature would want or do.

honestly? I'd erase the whole free will and self-needs functions..

The ability to just erase the a certain aspect of the being might not be possible. In Artificial Neural Networks, the AI abilities of the network is built into a series of mathematical weights. If a model was produced on a large enough scale. There could be trillions of weights you'd have to alter to change its behavior. Then it might turn out, that language processing, and response on the level we desire might even require some degree of being self-aware.

the whole point of them is to serve us, not to live, we can make that type on our own.

People maybe the same argument of slaves. Does that mean its true?

you'd be kicked out of your own planet, you'd be futile compared to them

There are little you can base this claim on. (Hint: Sci-fi movies are not always true)

but really I am simply suggesting the end of the greatest challenge in the computer science field, a machine capable of 100% nothing but talking back like a human, and happen to be targeting bats all day long without questioning it

I disagree... IMO humanities greatest question is: "Are we alone?" If we are able to answer that question with machines that can think independently. Might be the closest we come to discovering other kinda of intelligent life exists. Before (and if) we make contact with other intelligent life that arose naturally.

really... a human can't compete with AI on bat hunting or anything-else-hunting

Actually it is commonly believed that a higher level AI might only have the IQ of a two year old at first. In which case a human can easily compete and win.

and a bot could never really have emotions, it could just as easily play tic tac toe with himself all day long he wouldn't know the difference, this really betrays the entire concept of games as things that are designed for amusement rather than... things that require a fairly good computer so you could run 10-20 AIs to play for you(?!)

How do you know that a machine couldn't have desire to form bonds with other beings of it kinda, or even want to aspire to something more then it is. How do you know that a AI couldn't get pleasure from killing someone in PvP. Or by surpassing its friends in levels?.

I doubt anyone wants to trash his work just so a bundle of bits and bytes could roam around in his creation possibly emulating human chatter.

Actually if it had the ability to have desires, and goals, I could enjoy the rewards from those goals, then I wouldn't have a issue with it.

why would anyone program free will?!

To see if its possible? To see if we are alone? To see if we actually have free will? many reasons.

perfect world clones came to mind there, didn't know guild wars now feature bots, horrible to hear really...
but yes I am completely against letting them roam around even when they learned to talk
and if anyone is going to give them free will , well he should really see what happens in just about every sci-fi movie that ever discussed robots that have that annoying free will and emotions function

Also, every sci-fi movie its possible to turn a computer into a bomb. Again, sci-fi != reality.

anyway, assume alice made sense more than she does now,(even though she already makes much more sense than a lot of kids I have tried talking to really) would you let alice kill your bats?

Alice is the wrong approach to a AI that has free will. She is little more then a cleaver NLP algorithm. Which by its nature would never be able to evolve into something that has free will. The real way to do it is, to have the AI learn to associate words with people, objects, and places. And build from there.

[hewhohasalongname]

ok ok let's start by saying I completely disagree with you and your way of thinking that AI needs to have free will.
and I completely disagree with "sci-fi? even if all the technology is given, that just couldn't happen..."
I mean seriously... robots + free will + not working for humans + getting mad = kicking human ass

why the hell would I create a specie that CAN and has the WILL to challenge me?!
and merely for the chance that they might just figure there is no reason for them to aid humans I wouldn't give them anything remotely like free will, that's a VERY VERY VERY stupid thing to give them.

now here are some other things I'd like to say:
a. if chemical reactions are causing the brain to act in different ways, does that mean we should duplicate them? that's just silly, let's ignore them, things will be made much more rational, and that's where we should strive.
b. no, no one cares if "we are alone " because the odds for that are so low, it's just silly and besides the solution will grant us absolutely nothing, and since I didn't say "humanity's" but "programmers' greatest challenge" there is no reason in hell for you to argue about it.
c. slaves were human, not made by human, and thus do not exist to serve me
if I am making a machine I am making it for my benefit, why the hell would I waste resources otherwise?
d. AI can be as dumb as you might think but even the current bots will "see" , target and attack any monster quicker than you could, ok? so you can't compete with that, not by agility, not by brain - because point and click doesn't require thought, and not by durability, you'll be giving up far before it.

everything else is about you constantly talking about bots with free will, which is insane.
and alice is a step in the very right direction, she will never have free will but she slowly becomes easier to talk to.

so other than agreeing that we disagree about the future of AI and in what direction should humanity steer, you didn't answer the actual question
would you let a bot that had alice's chat function, or an improved one, play the game?
if you won't, then we are back to "bots shouldn't be allowed dot", because of various reasons, none of which was your reason of "because they can't talk back and what not"
if you would, then we'll just have to disagree, and the botter from the start of the thread should mix his code and alice's code and make a bat slaying alice, for your pleasure and my...well...disagreement.

all in all there isn't any need to discuss it any further.
you aren't getting your free will bots( because you won't benefit from such and thus it's a waste of resources and humans are rational so they don't waste resources just for the heck of it), and if that's the only way you'd agree for a bot to play, which isn't remotely like your first statement but a whole different story, then bots will never be allowed.

[Kage]

ok ok let's start by saying I completely disagree with you and your way of thinking that AI needs to have free will.
and I completely disagree with "sci-fi? even if all the technology is given, that just couldn't happen..."
I mean seriously... robots + free will + not working for humans + getting mad = kicking human ass

First off, I do think if AI gain sufficient power, there will be those who believe they should be destroyed. And even more who would not see them as equal. There would be riots, and maybe even wars. But there will also be humans who can see past machine to see a conscious being. And they would most likely also fight for equality.

why the hell would I create a specie that CAN and has the WILL to challenge me?!
and merely for the chance that they might just figure there is no reason for them to aid humans I wouldn't give them anything remotely like free will, that's a VERY VERY VERY stupid thing to give them.

If your never challenged, then you will never see a different way of thinking. Imagine if no one was ever challenged? What if Hitler went unchallenged. What if slavery went unchallenged. Challenging your self, and social beliefs is the only way for things to change.

a. if chemical reactions are causing the brain to act in different ways, does that mean we should duplicate them? that's just silly, let's ignore them, things will be made much more rational, and that's where we should strive.

So... lets just say "The brain does a bunch of funny things we don't understand, so we should just ignore it and go on with our lives". The way the brain works, is essentially WHAT YOU ARE. In many ways it might even be what people call the "soul".

To understand what it is that happens in our brain, means to understand what makes us human. Even how are we different from animals, if we are any different? And if the only difference between us and a pig, is the number of cells, and number of connections we have. Then are animals self-aware? Are they able to have ideas, and dreams? And if they do, is it still ok for us to slaughter them for meat?

b. no, no one cares if "we are alone " because the odds for that are so low, it's just silly and besides the solution will grant us absolutely nothing, and since I didn't say "humanity's" but "programmers' greatest challenge" there is no reason in hell for you to argue about it.

The parse "Are we alone?" gets almost 70 million hits on google. So clearly people do care.

Secondly... there are a lot of planets.

"We have so far discovered 9 in our solar system, and 185 orbiting other stars (as of April. 2006).

But the real number is astronomically huge. There are about 400 billion stars in our galaxy alone. If each of them have the same number of planets (on average) as our own sun, then that's about 4 trillion planets in our own galaxy alone. Multiply that by an estimated 125 billion galaxies in the universe ... that's a lot of planets."

So 4 trillion * 125 Billion is about 5.0 × 10^23 we can estimate. Or:

500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Lets say only 1 in 1 billion are able to support complex life. (which the odds are actually much better then that).

That leaves: 5.0 × 10^14 planets that can have complex life...

Lets say only 1 in 1 billion are able to create intelligent life (which the odds are also, much better).

That leaves: 500,000 possible intelligent races that could exist in our universe...

(And this is being VERY skeptical). I once saw a formula to calculate how many possible intelligent races might exist. And it estimated hundreds in our galaxy alone.

So saying that other intelligent life is unlikely, is false. In fact, its a very slim chance that other intelligent races don't exist.

c. slaves were human, not made by human, and thus do not exist to serve me
if I am making a machine I am making it for my benefit, why the hell would I waste resources otherwise?

At the time, blacks were seen as a subspecies to whites. People did not consider them "human".

d. AI can be as dumb as you might think but even the current bots will "see" , target and attack any monster quicker than you could, ok? so you can't compete with that, not by agility, not by brain - because point and click doesn't require thought, and not by durability, you'll be giving up far before it.

Yeah, and some humans have fastest reaction times then others. And some humans have a high IQ and are able to solve harder puzzles. Etc.

Saying that intelligent AIs can't play the game because they would have a unfair advantage is like saying smart people can't play, because they can beat all the dumb people.

everything else is about you constantly talking about bots with free will, which is insane.
and alice is a step in the very right direction, she will never have free will but she slowly becomes easier to talk to.

Like I said, Alice is a NLP (natural language processor). Even though she can learn cleaver tricks to make people think she is intelligent, she has no way of associating knowledge of words with things that exist in reality.

so other than agreeing that we disagree about the future of AI and in what direction should humanity steer, you didn't answer the actual question
would you let a bot that had alice's chat function, or an improved one, play the game?

Simply put, no, I would personally would not like to see bots like alice in the game.

if you won't, then we are back to "bots shouldn't be allowed dot", because of various reasons, none of which was your reason of "because they can't talk back and what not"

I think I said talk back in a meaningfully way. At lest I meant that if I did not say it. Bots like alice are unable to do this.

all in all there isn't any need to discuss it any further.
you aren't getting your free will bots( because you won't benefit from such and thus it's a waste of resources and humans are rational so they don't waste resources just for the heck of it), and if that's the only way you'd agree for a bot to play, which isn't remotely like your first statement but a whole different story, then bots will never be allowed.

There are many benefits to having intelligent AI.

[zefram]

I made one innocent post and look at that flame. Don't you have people life?

[Kage]

Don't you have people life?

people life? No I don't

[Len]

Botting in the game gives an unfair advantage towards fellow players.

I disagree completely. Here's why.

I am working man. I work 8 hours a day as a programmer. When I came home, I either fall dead to bed or relax behind computer surfing web or playing games like TMW. I can play TMW perhaps hour or two per day. Meanwhile, there are players (I don't want to tell the names but I know at least one player like that) that play more that 8 hours a day. He is uneployed so he use it as unfair advantage. Hell, he play all day long. Why? Because he can. I write myself a bot for same reason. Because I can. And because I simply cannot match players like he is. It is also unfair (by your measures).

I don't really think it is unfair. It is the GAME. In game everybody use his own skills to beat other players. Somebody have lots of times, somebody has talent, somebody is skilled in trade, etc.

Last time I checked the only advantage to being unemployed is having lots of free time. Also two hours per day is plenty of time to get somewhere in this game (life isn't fair BTW).
Diablo 1 and 2 are great games, But the online experience has been dragged through the mud. Because most people are using their skills(cheating), so playing legit losses all meaning (effectively ruining the game)
PvP and everyone has god mode weee fun
someone makes you crash because they don't like you weee fun
I owned you with my bot lvled char and store bought stuff weee fun
A world in which everyone sits in town or is out botting weee fun
Someone finds a bug in a game which allows them to have unlimited cash and then uses it to mess up the games economy wee fun

I made one innocent post and look at that flame. Don't you have people life?

The catalyst is always responsible

[Len]

All the cheating in d1 & 2 is what made the games fun. Didn't you have the anti-god mode hack & anti-anti-god mode hack?

Anti-god mode? In all the time I spent in diablo 1 I've never seen anything like that work

Also how is someone making the NPC Achra (or however you say her name) in diablo 2 walk out of town so only they can use her (basically making themselves immortal) fun?

or having someone blink you to death just because your doing great...

[daemonowner]

This is getting a little off track... i just want to say that Botting is stupid, it takes the fun out of the game for legit players and the botters will destroy gameplay if they continue to bot so something has to be done about it. i like the idea of a server for bots personally

[Necromokron]

Anti-god mode was part of an anti-hack trainer in d1. The anti-anti- was a joke.

This is getting a little off track... i just want to say that Botting is stupid, it takes the fun out of the game for legit players and the botters will destroy gameplay if they continue to bot so something has to be done about it. i like the idea of a server for bots personally

Please explain how botting ruins game play for you? The only argument I ever heard in game was, "Do you think it is fun for the rest of us you making lots of money".

I am mainly referring to botting bats. But even botting in general...

Which honestly, I can not see how someone makes their money personally affects anyone else. Or if someone even bots levels. Seriously how does this affect you?

Give me a real argument besides, "it's not fair".

It is unfair because of reasons like this:

Lets say daemonowner was spending a while at the ice caves, making money and gaining tiny exp (He's lvl 85 or something, of course its tiny exp). He finishes and has made 100k. A bot also does the exact same thing, possibly for even longer, while the botter just sits around on their main character talking, lvling up elsewhere, or doing random s**t like that. See, botting is unfair, as it allows you to do more thank you ordinarily could, and it gives you an unfair advantage.

Anyway, your just saying botting is fine because YOU bot, Amun.