Nard doesnt say Goodbye

[AnonDuck]

Nard is a good-hearted, passionate, and active contributor. If you lose him, then you should honestly ask yourself: "What have I done wrong diplomatically speaking, that could have otherwise salvaged this situation." After all, Nard has been here for years; he's a consistent agent for good, not a "fly-by-night" transient.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

When I first interacted with Nard.. I said (and I quote) "What an unreasonable twat". Since then I have come to respect his opinions as well thought out. He may not always be "right" but he ALWAYS has something to say that makes me think hard about the topic and approach it from new angles. I value his input greatly. Yes he's abrasive and hard to talk to sometimes(ok most of the time) but that's just Nard. He doesn't do it on purpose and one has to keep that in mind when talking to him. If you do you'll realize he's a great guy.

Here's the thing: I could replace "Nard" in the paragraph above with quite a few other names involved with TMW and it would still sound right. So people (including Nard), PLEASE don't assume others are launching a personal attack against you or are actively trying to be unreasonable. That's almost never the case. We all just have strong opinions.. and crappy social skills

[o11c]

We all just have strong opinions.. and crappy social skills

QFT.

Of course, the difference is that I'm usually right.

[Nard]

I usually avoid to do personal attacks unless the interlocutor use obvious bad faith arguments, or when he/she attacks someone for no reason or out of proportions ones. Now, we are supposed to develop a common project and this ptoject is supposed to be open. If so, any contributor, including the high skilled and experienced ones must admit that a complete newbie with good will comes and asks silly questions; and answer them with the respect which is due to everyone. When participating to a project it is required that every one is frank, and contributes in the projects's interests even if his ego as to suffer from it.
Of course solutions are not always obvious and compromises which are generally frustrating to every one have to be adopted. The first required quality in a project over all skills is communication. If no or bad communication there is no project possible. Communication, with egoes interferences is a problem in TMW, Manasource and related.

PLEASE don't assume others are launching a personal attack against you or are actively trying to be unreasonable. That's almost never the case. We all just have strong opinions.. and crappy social skills

When a moderator isolates 2 lines of a post to say you are out of topic while he allows a contributor to contest your good faith. when he doesnt see a post by an administrator, with a hidden link which makes you nuked by other users then deletes or moves your posts (once again I don't speak of the 4 posts I made to in an "abrasive" purpose) whether they are on topic or not it is indeed a personal attack

o11c's post was (thanks freeyorp) a personal attack.

[quote="o11c]
We are definitely aware of that. But what are we supposed to do? We're still exploring the details of our new situation, and then people come and make demands ...
I try to spend *my* time writing quality code. I really don't like being distracted by the drama.[/quote]

I tried to make quality contributions to wiki. wiki and web site and are an essential component of the project. It needs an update and installs. You chose to administrate this project, do not complain about the requirements. Behave like an administrator or resign and be a simple developer. If you don't want to deal with dramas, take care not to cause them.

About your vision of GPL
If we have a discussion about software, outside any context all of us will know we are speaking about: software, or program is a sequence of instructions which tells a machine what to do
If we have a discussion about art whether it is music, pictures, dance, we also know what we are speaking about. In some cases, music for example we an think about similitudes: a score is a kind of program for an instrumentist.

Fortunately whe have software that allow to get a representation of music, pictures, dance, theatre... in various formats, and allow us to produce new kinds of art. These are data that can to be used by software to produce output to a peripheral (or some other data).

When I read GPL, I see a huge amount of references to software, scripts, compilation and we know what it is speaking about.

That is what I call "common sense" in the strict meaning.

When you say I can publish digital art under GPL you presuppose (assume) that it can apply. Common sense says no. If you torture "source code" definition to try to include it, there will always be an example that makes you wrong, the simpest ones are like: My preferred form of the work for making modifications to a midi file is my synth, my preferred form of the work for making modifications to an ogg file is my Saxophone, my preferred form of the work for making modifications to a tiff file is my Leica (a good camera) and my metallographic microscope. Even if I wanted to I would never be able to share these "sources". I am ok to share the result, to help to get similar results though. This is precisely because of this insolvable problem, and because there was a will to share "artistic" data in the Gnu spirit, while complying to the laws that CC was brought to life.

Gnu was a precursor, they showed the path, this doesn't mean they are right or that GPL applies to all topics. There are good reasons why Gnu felt the need to make specific license for documentation and license some of their own texts under CC .

[Nard]

I am very upset by the moderation queue thing, and more because my posts are controlled by crush who is involved in the issue, because there is inequalities in the treatments and it spams my email box. I will not wait but a day or two (maybe) before I quit definitively this project.

[Crush]

•You were unfair when you didnt remove this o11c's post: viewtopic.php?p=134319#p134319 which is not only out of topic, but trolling in a content development thread.

I agree with you, I should have acted sooner in this case. The post by o11c was offending and definitely uncalled for. This post got removed from this thread by now.

•You were unfair when you referred to two lines in my reply to Jaxad, just to say wrongly that I was out of topic.

But Ablu was right: The discussion was going in circles and distracting from the actual topic at hand. But I wasn't referring to you specifically. I was addressing all discussion participants. By cutting the discussion short as an uninvolved moderator I was offering a face-saving way to end it for everyone and allow everyone to focus on a much more important and productive activity, which was researching the authorship of older content files.

•You were unfair to remove several posts that were'n't mine under angryness and bring them back without a single word of explanation (I even do not say excuses, and I do not care about the ridiculous source code that was here only to underline your contradictions).

This seems to be a misunderstanding. I am not sure which posts you are referring to. But I was moving around a lot of posts at that moment. It is possible that they were in a different thread where you were not looking, so you assumed that I deleted and then restored them after you called me out on it. This was not the case. I in fact read your comment about me restoring the posts before I read the one about the posts being deleted. And I am still not sure which posts exactly you are referring to.

•Finally, you were unfair to remove my last post which was in the heart of Topic where I quoted Gnu. (quote follows so users and TMWC can judge)

I am sorry, but I don't agree with you in this case. I asked as a forum moderator to stop pondering this topic. You ignored this. When the instructions I make as a moderator are ignored, I must act administratively. I had no other choice.

[Nard]

Subject: Nard doesnt say Goodbye

I am very upset by the moderation queue thing, and more because my posts are controlled by crush who is involved in the issue, because there is inequalities in the treatments and it spams my email box. I will not wait but a day or two (maybe) before I quit definitively this project.

I put you on moderation queue, because you kept derailing an important development thread even though I told you not to do so. I was chosen by the TMW committee to be the forum moderator. My job is to arbitate discussions to keep them constructive. I can only do this job when people respect my instructions. When people are free to ignore my instructions because they don't agree with them (and nobody agrees when you tell them to stop talking about something they are emotionally involved in), I can not do my job.

I will put you off the moderation queue when you promise that you will from now on respect my moderation instructions.

I never transgressed the rules but once. On the opposite o11c does it when he wants off topic, despise... I have nothing to promise but one thing: The next time such an issue happens my decision to leave will be definitive. I have no time to loose for that. The multiple posts was a singletime provocation and you perfectly know it.
Insinuating or sumply believing that I could spam TMW more than once and in a very specific context is an insult to me. I am not that kind of guy that is able to use spam, DOS or DDOS as a mean of revenge; or as a mean to make believe the other one is the nasty one.
stop it now

[Crush]

I do not ask you to agree with me, just to follow my instructions as forum moderator.

When you refuse to do that, then you can not post on a forum where I am the moderator.

[Nard]

I agree with you, I should have acted sooner in this case. The post by o11c was offending and definitely uncalled for. This post got removed from this thread by now.

it was offending out of topic and more the link was hidden

But Ablu was right: The discussion was going in circles and distracting from the actual topic at hand. But I wasn't referring to you specifically. I was addressing all discussion participants. By cutting the discussion short as an uninvolved moderator I was offering a face-saving way to end it for everyone and allow everyone to focus on a much more important and productive activity, which was researching the authorship of older content files.

I agree with circles: He contested every assertoin I could make without bringing new arguments to the example I gave. but this is not what I meant: you extracted 2 lines in my reply to Jaxad who spoke of Berne convention. It was in topic wsn't it? or was it a post about Einstein as you suggested?

In the topic concerning egytian things, where I posted the 4 posts C code source of my pic. (I would have removed them by myself if you asked for it) you suppressed the 4 posts first, then all posts between
http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 08#p134308 and http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 44#p134344 (included)

•Finally, you were unfair to remove my last post which was in the heart of Topic where I quoted Gnu. (quote follows so users and TMWC can judge)

I am sorry, but I don't agree with you in this case. I asked as a forum moderator to stop pondering this topic. You ignored this. When the instructions I make as a moderator are ignored, I must act administratively. I had no other choice.[/quote]
You had (see upper) gnu recommend other licensing for free art.
If TMWC 's decision is already taken, then close the topic, as long as it is open we can discuss about it and I can say that GPL is nonsense regarding art. Or is only one opinion allowed?

[Nard]

When you refuse to do that, then you can not post on a forum where I am the moderator.

Is this means that I am banned?

[Crush]

When you refuse to do that, then you can not post on a forum where I am the moderator.

Is this means that I am banned?

Not yet. But when you insist that my moderation instructions do not apply to you, then there are only two options.

You surely understand that I can't make an exception for you personally, so that means that when you don't have to follow my instructions, nobody has to. Under that condition I couldn't be forum administrator anymore.

Should you insist that you are exempt from moderation, I will give the TMW Committee two options to choose from. Either you are banned from the forum, or I will resign from my position as forum moderator.

[Sanity]

[Nard]

When you refuse to do that, then you can not post on a forum where I am the moderator.

Is this means that I am banned?

Not yet. But when you insist that my moderation instructions do not apply to you, then there are only two options.

You surely understand that I can't make an exception for you personally, so that means that when you don't have to follow my instructions, nobody has to. Under that condition I couldn't be forum administrator any[*][*]more.

Should you insist that you are exempt from moderation, I will give the TMW Committee two options to choose from. Either you are banned from the forum, or I will resign from my position as forum moderator.

1. I don't know your moderation rules
2. where did I say I would not respect the rules? I respected during 3 years and break them once while other break them without a single warning.
3. I did not asked to be exempt of moderation I said that the punishment was enough regarding the fault.
4. You speak to me as if Iwas a baby and ask me a promise; I don't like the tone you employ with me and refuse do so

You are admisistratror of the whle TMW forum . your sentence means that if I refuse to promise you not to do it again I will not be allowed to post on it I call that a ban.
I also said:
[quote="myself]
Insinuating or simply believing that I could spam TMW more than once and in a very specific context is an insult to me. I am not that kind of guy that is able to use spam, DOS or DDOS as a mean of revenge; or as a mean to make believe the other one is the nasty one.
[/quote]
Is my english good enough for you or should I translate it to german?
@sanity:

[Crush]

I am not talking about general rules, I am talking about moderative instructions I give in individual cases. When I will again ask to stop a specific behavior in a specific thread, will you follow this instruction or not?

When your answer is yes, I will remove you from the moderation queue.

When your answer is no, then this discussion is over, and I will have to find a solution with the committee members.

[Nard]

You are not my father, I am not yours (though I could be).
I think my behaviour on this forum, in game, in wiki,more recently in trello, ... is enough for you to know who I am, whether if my word is trustable or not.
On the opposite I think you owe other users apologizes for occasionally being partial.
My answer is of course no, to anything else than I said.

[Nard]

Sorry for double post, but delay doesnot allow me to edit:


I don't understand why there are specific unpublished rules for me.