Nard doesnt say Goodbye

[Nard]

/me smiles to his friends
/me says good-bye only to a few people.

[o11c]

lol

[Nard]

Hello Nard

You are angry, and I can understand that. I would be furious too, in your situation. You are smart and you are right about something, and people just don't want to understand that you are right. And even when you keep telling them over and over again they refuse to understand. And now there is that evil forum mod who hates you and wants to stop you from telling people that they are wrong, just because he has a power complex.

But before you give in to your anger and destroy everything you have here, I would like to give you a chance to cool down. I have now put you on moderation queue. From now on, each of your posts will have to be approved by a moderator. This is in no way an attempt to bully you or to stop you from stating your opinion. It is just to give you a chance to cool down a bit and make you think what you are doing before you post. When your posts are constructive and on-topic, you will have no problem getting them reviewed. I am also not doing this in an attempt to prevent you from saying anything I disagree with. I will approve your postings even when I disagree with them, as long as they are not disrupting development.

I know that you are now likely thinking about registering a new account, because you refuse to let some moderator who is wrong and doesn't know how to do his job stop you from writing the truth. But before you do that, I would like you to think about where this will lead. When you would do that, you would only leave me one option, and that would be to ban you on sight, and when that shouldn't help to ask the server admin to ip-ban you. I don't want to do this because it would be a lot of work for us all and would destroy any chance for ever working together with you, but it would be my only option. What else would you as the moderator do in this situation?

Is this stupid dispute that important to you? Just because you can't be wrong about how to interprete the GPL?

Regards

I deny you to "give me any chance to cool down" because the only thing you do is putting oil on fire, and Ablu o11c and you just destroyed the things I had on this forum. The only things that could make me cool down is that I get public apologies from o11c (Then I'll change my signature back to a reasonable one), and you; just as your accusations were public.
I can imagine that I could have thought that Ablu's post s were tells instead of believing they were just opinions from someone who has little practice, and reply to explain. I can recognize that the tone he employed made me upset and that I could have been more kind in my answers.
But Yes, I publicly say you are unfair in this case:

• You were unfair when you didnt remove this o11c's post: http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 19#p134319 which is not only out of topic, but trolling in a content development thread.
• You were unfair when you referred to two lines in my reply to Jaxad, just to say wrongly that I was out of topic.
• You were unfair to remove several posts that were'n't mine under angryness and bring them back without a single word of explanation (I even do not say excuses, and I do not care about the ridiculous source code that was here only to underline your contradictions).
• Finally, you were unfair to remove my last post which was in the heart of Topic where I quoted Gnu. (quote follows so users and TMWC can judge)

I may add that you are often disgracious toward newbies questions, except on the graphic art topics.

It seems that you do not know me after 3 years of posts. If you decide the ban I will not create another account, because I respect the rules on the opposite of some members of this forum, some of which are actual members of TMWC. If you decide to ban me, it is your right but your reasons must be public. I request a TMWC public agreement and to be put in the "banned" group so my name and posts can stay attached.( I'll remove my signature before on request).

Is this stupid dispute that important to you? Just because you can't be wrong about how to interprete the GPL?

Yes this dispute IS important to me because I AM an artist too IRL even a small one; and for that reason I do care about artists rights that TMW does not respect by imposing them since the beginning a license that Gnu itselfs does not recommend. I just thought that this topic was the occasion to make things right. I am not wrong, the internet artists community says I am, just look to bthe license theuy use, with no sunglasses. Even you agree with me :

You know what's the funny thing? I actually agree with your point. I agree that the GPL is ill-suited for anything but software sourcecode. But I don't agree with the way you are making your point, which is by being obnoxious, trying to derail threads and preventing people from getting work done.

The censored original post was turned as questions. (I had no copy)

Licenses for Other Types of Works

We believe that published software and documentation should be free software and free documentation. We recommend making all sorts of educational and reference works free also, using free documentation licenses such as theGNU Free Documentation License (GNU FDL).

For essays of opinion and scientific papers, we recommend either the Creative Commons Attribution-NoDerivs 3.0 United States License, or the simple “verbatim copying only” license stated above.

We don't take the position that artistic or entertainment works must be free, but if you want to make one free, we recommend the Free Art License.

Gnu protects the content of its pages by:

This page is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NoDerivs 3.0 United States License.

Copyright Infringement Notification

Updated: $Date: 2013/02/28 17:09:29 $

[Freeyorp101]

I agree completely that GPL doesn't cover art well. The preference around here seems to be that people want to move to CC-BY-SA.

Unfortunately, what's done was done, and the viral natures of GPL and CC-BY-SA cause problems when you want to combine things from each. Having some works in only one, and other works in only another, ties the hands of what people can do.

There's currently an initiative to collect permission to be able to use old works under CC-BY-SA, and asking for new works to be made available under both. TMW can't just go straight to CC-BY-SA and stop asking for works to be made available under GPL right away, because, as above, it would place limitations on how things can be combined.

When TMW can use everything under CC-BY-SA, I expect that the GPL requirement for art will be dropped completely. Until then, TMW can't get rid of the old provisions without digging a hole for themselves.

Other projects have broad "future-proofing" statements to get around the problems caused by licensing. For instance, Wesnoth has a provision that ["By contributing code or content to the project, you agree for it to be distributed under GPL or whatever other open-source license the project maintainers choose in the future."]. TMW has no such provisions, so any transition will be slow and painful as every individual contributor is tracked down, and unidentifiable works are replaced.


---Freeyorp

[Ablu]

[...]
and Ablu o11c and you just destroyed the things I had on this forum.
[...]
I can imagine that I could have thought that Ablu's post s were tells instead of believing they were just opinions from someone who has little practice, and reply to explain. I can recognize that the tone he employed made me upset and that I could have been more kind in my answers.

Sorry, I only wanted to outline that your opinion about the GPL was too strict (and misinterpreting) in my eyes and I tried to quote the GPL for that. My posts were not meant to disregard any of your work or attack you personally in any way. The posts were not meant to be tells but to represent my opinion and common sense. They also were not meant to be in a inpolite tone. If you understood them this way this was incorrect. Though, I am not a native English speaker so maybe I failed to phrase the stuff I wanted to say in a way which is more clear.

I am sad but I apologise that I am somehow seen as (partly) responsible for this drama. I certainly did not intent this drama.

Regards,
Ablu

[Nard]

The previous post is out of topic. Moderator, please put it into the right one.

This is not a good creasçon why others are wrong that you must be wrong too. Many others say Code is GPL, art is CC BY SA, which has the obvious advantage to be applicable and conform to common senwse which leaded to these two licenses . Unique license is not.

What would you think you, programmers, if you found a project with the following rule:

["By contributing code or content to the project, you agree for it to be distributed under CC BY SA or whatever other open-source license the project maintainers choose in the future."]
You would think that the project dosen't go well, and you would be right.

[Nard]

I am sad but I apologise that I am somehow seen as (partly) responsible for this drama. I certainly did not intent this drama.

You originated it but are not the cause: o11c and crush are.

now just a suggestion: rent for a short time a midi keyboard, and try to record in realtime in rosegarden a small melody (more difficult if you can, chords would be a better demo). Then display it in your favourite sheet displayer, you will understand what I meant.


My only source is inspiration, I cannot unfortunately transmit it.

[Freeyorp101]

The previous post is out of topic. Moderator, please put it into the right one.

Which post, and where does it belong? You should be able to use the report post button for meta tasks. If not, this moderation queue business is even sillier.

This is not a good creasçon why others are wrong that you must be wrong too. Many others say Code is GPL, art is CC BY SA, which has the obvious advantage to be applicable and conform to common senwse which leaded to these two licenses . Unique license is not.

I think I'm missing some context here. Who are you talking to, and what reason are you referring to? What do you mean by unique license?

What would you think you, programmers, if you found a project with the following rule:

["By contributing code or content to the project, you agree for it to be distributed under CC BY SA or whatever other open-source license the project maintainers choose in the future."]
You would think that the project dosen't go well, and you would be right.

I wouldn't mind. I belive in the principle of Free as in Freedom, and they're guarunteeing that anything I submit will be available under an open source licence. I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from here; I haven't been keeping a close eye on the "Allow/switch to CC-BY-SA as license for graphics and sounds" topic, is there something I'm missing?
As for not going well, what are you saying? Wesnoth is far bigger than TMW has ever been or will be. What would you suggest?


---Freeyorp

[Nard]

I agree completely that GPL doesn't cover art well. ...

I am sorry. I am under arrest and all my posts are verified, time of reaction is delayed :/
Edit
Topic should be: allow/switch to CC BY SA ... (I don't care you post it here, I am not moderator. Topic is: Nard doesnt say Goodbye).

Wesnoth is big TMW is not.
It doesn't mean that Wesnoth is right to have this licence policy.
Much more interesting question is: what makes people leave or refuse to join TMW?

[Sanity]

I'm pretty sure you could contact FSF or even RMS and get a proper explanation about feasibility of using GPL for images and other non-code stuff.

[o11c]

I'm pretty sure you could contact FSF or even RMS and get a proper explanation about feasibility of using GPL for images and other non-code stuff.

There's no need - there is plenty of documentation on the matter, the most important of which are the license texts themselves.

As long as you don't get hung up on the *words* "source code" and "object code", and instead look at what they are defined as, the GPL applies just fine to images. The phrasing is better in the GPLv3, but the pertinent points are still found in the GPLv2.

Honestly, I think the whole "don't use GPL for images" thing started as FUD by CC, and now continues only because pretty much everyone *does* use CC for art and it would be nice to have uniformity.

[Nard]

I'm pretty sure you could contact FSF or even RMS and get a proper explanation about feasibility of using GPL for images and other non-code stuff.

as o11c said there is plenty of information:

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/licenses.en.html

We don't take the position that artistic or entertainment works must be free, but if you want to make one free, we recommend the Free Art License.

[blackrazor]

I'm not worried about which licence to use for art. I know it's important, but it looks like Jen is talking to the appropriate people for what is best (or feasible) for TMW in its current state. I trust (and thank) Jen.

What worries me is the deteriorating civility and diplomacy when disagreements occur. Punishments are not consistently applied, and punishments are harsher than they need to be. Civility and diplomacy are important, especially with a volunteer workforce, or you may wind up working with a much smaller number of actively contributing people, which is bad for an already short-handed project.

Nard is a good-hearted, passionate, and active contributor. If you lose him, then you should honestly ask yourself: "What have I done wrong diplomatically speaking, that could have otherwise salvaged this situation." After all, Nard has been here for years; he's a consistent agent for good, not a "fly-by-night" transient.

Like I said, it's a disturbing trend, and I am definitely not the only one noticing it. I know it's possible to rationalize the details into insignificance (politicians do it all the time), but please take heed of the obvious emotional reality. Everyone knows it's different now, and maybe now they are just starting to see where that can lead. Personally, I hope for better, kinder times ahead.

[Big Crunch]

We don't take the position that artistic or entertainment works must be free, but if you want to make one free, we recommend the Free Art License.

Lol, the FArt License

[o11c]

Like I said, it's a disturbing trend, and I am definitely not the only one noticing it. I know it's possible to rationalize the details into insignificance (politicians do it all the time), but please take heed of the obvious emotional reality. Everyone knows it's different now, and maybe now they are just starting to see where that can lead. Personally, I hope for better, kinder times ahead.

We are definitely aware of that. But what are we supposed to do? We're still exploring the details of our new situation, and then people come and make demands ...

I try to spend *my* time writing quality code. I really don't like being distracted by the drama.