eA developer? TMW contributor?

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eA developer? TMW contributor?

Post by Bertram » Thu May 20, 2010 11:16 am

Hi there,

Just to annoy you all bit more ;)

I wondered why the dev group is called eA developers, and why content makers are called contributors.

I may be wrong, and feel free to correct my thought in that case, but:

As for myself, I'm not feeling like developing the eA server,
content upload apart.

My main preoccupation is to get the client the more stable possible and bring a usable ManaServ application suite for the plain joy of anyone.
So a name like TMW coder, TMW developer, or simply 'Developer' would better fit the actual function.

As for the term contributor, I wondered whether it would be possible to get some specialisation (like 'Pixel artist', 'Music and sounds maker', 'Content maker').
Technically, they would be the same as being contributor, but it would help getting the contributor's speciality. For someone with more than one skill area, a cool name reflecting this fact could be: 'Polyvalent content maker'.

I really think that way, people will feel happier with their status, as a more specialized reward for their contributions.

Last but not least, and I'm sure Jaxad will appreciate ;) , I don't think the DemiGod rank is good joke on the long term. There are other superlatives at least as good as this one without potentially referring to the ego of the assignee. No offence intended but I personally obtained pejorative comments from my relatives, after they have been looking at this rank for the first time without knowing the person behind.

Hope I'll get constructive comment upon this.

Best regards.
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Re: eA developer? TMW contributor?

Post by Rotonen » Thu May 20, 2010 10:15 pm

The inconsistencies are artefacts from renaming old groups. The TMW side of things was essentially named for me to fit the CR approach.

All the eA side naming and groups are probably not thought of by anyone and not handled by anyone.
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Re: eA developer? TMW contributor?

Post by AxlTrozz » Thu May 20, 2010 10:39 pm

Bertram,

Hello,

May be this post will be my last comment (depends on the gods), please forgive my tone is nothing directed to you or any player, is just what my mind think is the actual facts and project status.

All this ranks started when eA and Manasource got divorced ( Bjorn and Platyna personal issues brought this division), I know you are not asking but as good as Platyna's support to the project can be, has been also its curse.

Before we had the rank: 1. TMW Developers. 2. Administrator And that's it !

So after the cataclism , we finish with multiple divisions, from, a whole project (TMW) to this:

1. Server code (Manasource = Bjorn), no servers, no hosting, no domain, no email, no IRC related with the former TMW, in fact they don't care about TMW anymore.
2. Client code (fortunately supported for a few good programmers like you and others, I think Elven is going to get involved too)
3. eAthena actual Game servers, which is eA running TMW client and the good and bad graphics from TMW (under godness Platyna but now is the so called demigod, I hate that, sick tired after years) and eA code development (eAdevelopers)
4. Content Development (no programmers, only scripters, mappers, web developers, musicians and pixelartist) this is what you see as TMW in the forum, hosted on Platynum servers (so under the gods will) , sharing domain and some other things but not working for eA directly, the basic idea is use Manasource server and the best client and develop graphics, quests, etc. to launch CR1.

I think I mention all the division, splits or whatever, if something is missing , you got the idea.

So we have all sort of ranks, eAdevelopers, eA client developers(if such thing), Manasource server developers, Musician for eA, Musician for CR1, Pixelartist for eA, Pixelartist for CR1, Scripters, Mappers, Backstory developers.

Divide and conquer ! we have so many divisions now that the original TMW project has been fatally wounded and will, with no remedy, die, may be will become in something else.

And that's why we have now the rank "Contributor" because the gods had decided will be that way, may be they change tomorrow who knows, may be they are lazy, but who will argue with the gods ?
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Re: eA developer? TMW contributor?

Post by Bertram » Fri May 21, 2010 9:51 am

Hi,

I thank you both for answering frankly :)

It's so hard to keep a team spirit!! But let's try to keep on, once again, we're not that far from a first phoenixian server with much cleaner graphic content than before.
Rotonen wrote:The inconsistencies are artefacts from renaming old groups. The TMW side of things was essentially named for me to fit the CR approach.
All the eA side naming and groups are probably not thought of by anyone and not handled by anyone.
:arrow: Indeed. CR leading groups are the only relevant names in there for now.
Axl wrote:May be this post will be my last comment (depends on the gods)
:arrow: Usually, you then get hit by a bus. :lol:
Axl wrote:[...]under godness Platyna but now is the so called demigod, I hate that, sick tired after years
:arrow: When I told I did get pejorative comments... ;)
Axl wrote:but who will argue with the gods ?
:arrow: We actually are! ;) As for me, I will just speak about facts:

1. What people are actually doing here?
I'll put names here, please tell me if I'm forgetting something or someone. I'd like to get something viable this time:
(Functions are hopefully self-explanatory)
- Coding team: Developers, Senior Developers, Development leader.
- SFX team: Music and sound makers, SFX Leader.
- GFX Team: Pixel Artists, Senior Pixel artists, Content sub-project leader, Content Manager.
- Web team: Website developer, ManaWeb developer, Web leader.
- SQL team: SQL developers, SQL leader.
- Packaging team: Packagers (autotools, Cmake, nsi installer mastery), Release Leader.
- Moderation: Forum moderators, Game Masters, Forum Administrators, Moderation leader.
- Network: SysAdmins, Platyna.
- Administration and strategy: Development leader, Content Manager, Web leader, Administrators, Project leader, Platyna.

Currently, for each function I'd see, based on the day-to-day activity seen on this project and trust empowered to the people concerned:
- Developers: <Myself>, 4144, Aard, Blue112, Kage, Kess, Peavey, Turmfalke, Freeyorp, ... [Did I forget someone?]
- Senior developers: Crush, Jaxad0127, ... [Did I forget someone?]
- Development leader: Thorbjorn.

- Music and sound makers: Krazyjakee, felinemonstrosity, bcs86, dariunas, ...
- SFX Leader: saturn

- Pixel artists: Skipy, poison_ivy, Saphy, meway, ...
- Senior Pixel artists: i, Black Don, Fother, Len, IvanMorve, Crush.

- Content sub-project leader: AxlTrozz, any other ?, ...
- Content Manager: Rotonen,

- Website developer: ExceptionFault, Thorbjorn, ...?
- ManaWeb developer: ExceptionFault, Thorbjorn, ...?
- Web leader: ExceptionFault, ...?

- SQL developers: <Myself>, Crush, Jaxad0127, Kage.
- SQL Leader: ExceptionFault, Thorbjorn.

- Packagers: Aard, <Myself>, Jaxad0127, Crush, Kage, ...?
- Release Leader: Jaxad0127, Thorbjorn.

- Forum moderators: Crush, Jaxad0127, Platyna, ...?
- Game masters: CapitainAwesome, Narus, Katze, Tiana, Vink, ...?
- Forum administrators: (This thread is made for you guys!) Jaxad0127, Platyna, Crush, ...?
- Moderation Leader: Platyna.

- Project Leader: ElvenProgrammer

- SysAdmins: For the team made software support: Jaxad0127, Thorbjorn, ...?
For everything else: Platyna.
For god sake, who is administrating the Mana Testing world?

2. Where can people tell things?
- For everything in general: Forums, based on the currently quite well-working-so-far thread hierarchy, or irc.
- For Finished content upload request for any kind of server, etc, for people who don't have access to push or aren't sure of what they're doing: TMW mantis. (There are still request for client features, but they'll tend to disappear in time (hopefully).
- For client/servers code development, bug and features: Manasource mantis
Features should be discussed in forums or irc first. Any code contribution has to be reviewed by another developer.

3. So what should we change finally?
Every function listed above and every team should be added in the forum IMHO, even if it's to represent one person.
90% of the people here are mainly doing one kind of job, just as I'm mainly a developer and thorbjorn is mainly the development leader.
This way, everything will become much clearer when it comes into taking decision or being told something by someone else.
I also invite every polyvalent ones here to add in their signature their other skills, just as Crush is doing.
Last, but not least. A thread wiki link, text file, whatever, should list the people function, and be updated on demand.

Now you know what's the main idea of this thread!

Comments?

Best regards.
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Re: eA developer? TMW contributor?

Post by John P » Fri May 21, 2010 2:58 pm

Waste of time if you ask me. Someone has to enter all of these labels instead of doing something relevant to the game.

I see the need to label administration, moderation, and networking people. I see the need to label project leaders so newcomers know where to turn. I can understand the desire to separate eA and TMW contributors.

However, I don't understand the need for separating content and game developers. In fact, I don't understand the purpose of labeling contributors for their specialization.

I thought the labels were just to 'throw a bone' to people who want to stand out for their contributions (even if it is contrary, in my opinion, to the concept of open source work). I think "eA contributor" and "TMW contributor" should do just fine for that, no matter what you are doing..

Maybe someone (maybe I) can update the wiki to define specializations (it seems to have taken Bertram all of 5 minutes), then contributors can link to the wiki in their signature in case people are curious. I don't know forum capabilities, but perhaps even the label itself can link to the wiki?
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Re: eA developer? TMW contributor?

Post by Bertram » Fri May 21, 2010 4:09 pm

Hi John P,
Maybe someone (maybe I) can update the wiki to define specializations (it seems to have taken Bertram all of 5 minutes), then contributors can link to the wiki in their signature in case people are curious. I don't know forum capabilities, but perhaps even the label itself can link to the wiki?
Indeed a good compromise. I won't stop you from creating the page. And I've seen I've completely forgotten the scenario and written background part in those groups. Feel free to add in. Mea Culpa.
I think "eA contributor" and "TMW contributor" should do just fine for that, no matter what you are doing..
The fact is that there is no eA and TMW separation so far, we're all working for TMW, and TMW is currently based on a modified version of an eA server, which is to be replaced one day by a ManaServ server.
The ManaSource project aims at bringing an generic application suite to permit people to play MMORPG using the modified eA protocol-officially called tA, or the ManaServ one.
:arrow: Concerning TMW, the mana client and eA are dependencies.
Based on this, everyone involved here is a TMW contributor.
I would at least separate: SFX, GFX, coding, moderation, In-game moderation, and admins, in term of ranks.

Best regards.
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Re: eA developer? TMW contributor?

Post by Crush » Fri May 21, 2010 7:05 pm

I think instead of overcomplicating the user grouping (remember that all the user groups need separate permission handling etc.) I would rather suggest to reduce the number of user groups. I think we could do with these 6 ranks ordered from least to most privileges:

Manasource developer
People who program for Manasource. Because we separated Manasource from TMW this should rather be a prestige thing without further rights.

TMW Contributor
Everyone who contributes to content development with graphics, sounds, music, maps etc.. Has write access to the closed content development boards.

TMW game master
Have access to the game master confidential and moderation privileges in the community forums.

TMW developer
Everyone with decisive power on TMW, including admins, TMWAthena programmers and CR project leaders. Write access to all forums.

Forum moderator
Person with moderation privileges on the forum.

Forum administrator
Person with administration privileges on the forum.


When someone fits into more than one role the highest role should be chosen and he/she should announce in his/her signature what other groups apply.
  • former Manasource Programmer
  • former TMW Pixel artist
  • NOT a game master

Please do not send me any inquiries regarding player accounts on TMW.


You might have heard a certain rumor about me. This rumor is completely false. You might also have heard the other rumor about me. This rumor is 100% accurate.
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Re: eA developer? TMW contributor?

Post by Bertram » Fri May 21, 2010 7:21 pm

Hi Crush,

Keeping the CR sub-leader group. This could have a go, IMHO.
My bad is that I guess we'll have to keep generic contributors still for a while.

Anyone else agrees about it?

Best regards.
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Re: eA developer? TMW contributor?

Post by Jaxad0127 » Fri May 21, 2010 7:23 pm

Crush wrote:When someone fits into more than one role the highest role should be chosen and he/she should announce in his/her signature what other groups apply.
Groups can be seen on the profile page already. People can choose their default group, whi9ch shows next to their posts, and the profile page lists all groups in a nice dropdown.
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Re: eA developer? TMW contributor?

Post by bcs86 » Sat May 22, 2010 12:47 am

Why so serious? There are only a few people who do anything for TMW at present.

"Contributor" is a rank I'd be happy to lose. The interest list on profile pages is the best place to put areas of involvement.

"Demigod" has to go. No one here is a demigod. Those are people like Donald Knuth, Larry Wall, Dennis Ritchie and Linus Torvalds among others. Even they wouldn't want to be called that all the time.
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Re: eA developer? TMW contributor?

Post by Rotonen » Sat May 22, 2010 7:07 pm

First some things to correct:
Bertram wrote: - Pixel artists: Skipy, poison_ivy, Saphy, meway, ...
- Senior Pixel artists: i, Black Don, Fother, Len, IvanMorve, Crush.

- Content sub-project leader: AxlTrozz, any other ?, ...
- Content Manager: Rotonen,

- Project Leader: ElvenProgrammer
Saphy is definitely a senior pixel artist. Sadly enough Saply and Len are not working for TMW currently.

Saturn is the leader of the "Soundscape of CR1 (including soundtrack)" subproject of CR1. Freeyorp is the head of the gamesystem development subproject of CR1.

As for Elven? Background spirit perhaps? He does pop in every now and then. He did start this project way back, but it has not turned mostly like anything originally visioned. I have my gratitude for him being open minded enough back in the day to appoint me art leader on the spot of coming to the IRC channel and complaining about things. So far it's been a fun learning journey and I have faith we will get somewhere from here.

Also Platyna is the best host I could ever have dreamed of for this project for this budget. About TMW-eA server politics and policies, yes, a lot of things would have gone better with people actually actively talking to each other on a regular basis. Communication is one of the actual universal ointments.

Then to making my own points.

TMW-eA: It would be really healthy for someone to just step up and grab dictatorship of the game development there and appoint his/her own staff for the future of TMW-eA. Someone with enough balls to change things which are taken for granted these days. By game development I mean content. Both stuff client-sided like graphics and SFX, but most importantly gameplay related content: monster stats, playability curves, the entire experience people call a game. It's a community which would seriously deserve this. Preferrably someone who is not afraid to make mistakes. Someone who is not afraid to fix mistakes.

TMW CR projects: I set goals for each CR project. I moderate what is currently allowed to be worked on to concentrate our human resources sequentially into meaningful progression. I appoint people responsible for subprojects and they're free to run their show however they want to. I encourage them to recruit more people and manage the subprojects fairly independently. Obviously I have input to give on almost everything, but I'm at least trying to divide the responsibility. I also have strong opinions and people should not be afraid to overrule me with well constructed points and discussion.

I also handle things towards manasource. For all the people designing and making the game: what does it matter what or which game engine we use for it? We design graphics, we do maps, we design gameplay, we do items, we do music, we do SFX, we design the UI... For the end user, these make the game. Whatever combo of server/client it happens to run on doesn't matter as long as it works. For all of this, I have always tried to give a promise to all contributors that everything will be possible technologically. Some things might just cause more headache for the tech guys to pull off.

Also at this rate of progression of CR1, we won't be having to think about packaging related issues any time soon.

KISS is a good principle to go by. For now I think I'm somewhat managing it with CR1. We have a goal, we have a somewhat clear TODO. What we can improve a lot is maintaining a sensible wiki article of how things are now. This would also help forwarding people towards helping CR1.
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Re: eA developer? TMW contributor?

Post by enchilado » Sat May 22, 2010 7:21 pm

Rotonen wrote:TMW-eA: It would be really healthy for someone to just step up and grab dictatorship of the game development there and appoint his/her own staff for the future of TMW-eA. Someone with enough balls to change things which are taken for granted these days. By game development I mean content. Both stuff client-sided like graphics and SFX, but most importantly gameplay related content: monster stats, playability curves, the entire experience people call a game. It's a community which would seriously deserve this. Preferrably someone who is not afraid to make mistakes. Someone who is not afraid to fix mistakes.
I'd like to focus on the eA server, as I said a while ago. I'm not afraid to make mistakes, nor to fix them. I'm not saying I want to be handed control over the development of it but I do want to fix a lot of the mistakes already made and make new content for it.

However, I'm aware that I get sidetracked far too easily. This is entirely my fault for being lazy. Apart from the facts that I've not 'proved myself worthy', and that I've no experience in leading anything, this is the main reason why I don't think I'd even want to lead the development.

But, as I said, I do want to, and will, create content for the the eAthena server, whether it gets accepted or not. Apart from events there's not been much of an update since the Graveyard six or seven months ago. Who else is interested in developing the eA server?
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Re: eA developer? TMW contributor?

Post by Rotonen » Sat May 22, 2010 7:47 pm

poison_ivy wrote:But, as I said, I do want to, and will, create content for the the eAthena server, whether it gets accepted or not.
That is very nice of you and good for the TMW-eA community. For your personal sanity I would recommend you find out (or actually make and define at this point) what is the exact procedure to get stuff online from the drawing board into the game. My input would be "design stats/significance" -> "draw pixel art (or do script, etc.)" -> "package" -> "test" -> "release". The community should deserve one person to run after things like that and especially a person who can also say no.
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Re: eA developer? TMW contributor?

Post by Bertram » Wed May 26, 2010 11:17 am

Hi,

I still do think that Crush's proposal should apply, and I do ask for it.

If a poll is needed, please tell me.

Best regards.
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Re: eA developer? TMW contributor?

Post by Platyna » Wed May 26, 2010 5:19 pm

Bertram:
No offence, but being so long here and just yet noticing we have egos of size of average gas giant planet?
Jaxad's rank doesn't bother me even a little, nor I am going resign from mine.

AxlTrozz:
All that ranks started when I started to organize the people using forums in the way that would let me get rid of absolute power, and nothing got divorced, simply Bjorn doesn't involve in the community and I do not involve in development, it was wise thing to do.

I have created like three ranks: Admins, GMs and Development Moderators, and what led to this was the actual usefulness of the permissions they gave in the forum management.

As about not caring about TMW, and separatism, it is sad but true, might be caused by the fact Bjorn fails to see the reasoning that led to certain actions from me in the past. It can't continue, otherwise both TMW and CR1 will perish.
which is eA running TMW client and the good and bad graphics from TMW (under godness Platyna but now is the so called demigod, I hate that, sick tired after years) and eA code development (eAdevelopers)
I have no idea what do you mean.

Crush:
Yes, I am pro reduction of user groups on forums.

Regards.
Zuzanna K. Filutowska
[The rest of this signature was censored by TMWC's "Freedom" and "Free speech".]
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