Reflection on GM Commands and Permissions

[Wombat]

http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/GM_Commands

This topic is for players to discuss GM Commands and Permissions. This topic was made in response to ->"Hmm..Fair or not 2"<-.

In this topic, please discuss as you will, but also consider the suggestion of player organized events that would utilize GM Commands as well as enforcement discussion.

The "Event Coordinator" role hasn't been filled in a long time and can also be discussed in this topic as well as GM and other permission roles.

Suggestions will be reviewed and taken into consideration.

[yourmistakes]

i personally feel that gms should be allowed to do what they want with the few commands they have at their disposal, as long as they aren't giving anyone a tangible advantage. the crap those people where bitching about in that other thread is inconsequential and did not affect anything of value. anyone that states otherwise is either a fool or trolling.

[Reid]

Why not doing a vote?

[Ginaria]

Actually I dont understand this discussion about GMs behaviour, all is normal like before. No GM is getting crazy and ban people, because she/he likes it. Normally GMs warn people, if they break one of the few rules and only if this player doesnt stop her/his behaviour, then a GM has no other choice as to ban. And I dont believe, that GMs use @revive command only just for fun or to give a player an advantage. An example: Tradebot dies at town, because of spawn party, so I really recommend to revive him. Furthermore about GM Prsm, he is new GM, so if he does a mistake, dont hang him up at same moment. Everyone do mistakes and if you have something to complain, then you can really talk to Prsm about it in a normal way.

An idea about "rename"-possibility (better new thread!?):
i heard, GMs could rename players at past, I would really like this option. For example, i choosed at past a player name like "Ginarias slave", because i dont wanted a "(playername) mule", but I would say today, what a stupid idea. Surely some other players have an unlucky choosen charname too.

But it should not be possible, that players can rename her-/himself each day. One idea would be a NPC, who change playername for money (probably higher level -> more money) and this name cannot be changed 1 year. Or GMs get rename option back. And we should have a public list about changed char names. Probably the first renaming could be free (probably only for low leveled chars).

[Freeyorp101]

An idea about "rename"-possibility (better new thread!?):
i heard, GMs could rename players at past, I would really like this option. For example, i choosed at past a player name like "Ginarias slave", because i dont wanted a "(playername) mule", but I would say today, what a stupid idea. Surely some other players have an unlucky choosen charname too.

But it should not be possible, that players can rename her-/himself each day. One idea would be a NPC, who change playername for money (probably higher level -> more money) and this name cannot be changed 1 year. Or GMs get rename option back. And we should have a public list about changed char names. Probably the first renaming could be free (probably only for low leveled chars).

Not possible. The "renaming" was a transfer of all items/levels from one character to another, with the original character being wiped. Even though this was only meant to be done under pressing need, this was still abused, as quest states were not transferred, let alone social issues with players taking on new identities. This is no longer done.


---Freeyorp

[dayve]

here are the commands used by GMs

AlOnS(216380: @hugo 148 times
AlOnS(216380: @invisible 5 times
AlOnS(216380: @linus 1 time
AlOnS(216380: @return 2 times
AlOnS(216380: @visible 5 times

Big Crunch(216046: @alive 11 times
Big Crunch(216046: @ban 7 times
Big Crunch(216046: @block 3 times
Big Crunch(216046: @chardropall 2 times
Big Crunch(216046: @charstats 9 times
Big Crunch(216046: @die 6 times
Big Crunch(216046: @goto 69 times
Big Crunch(216046: @heal 2 times
Big Crunch(216046: @hide 64 times
Big Crunch(216046: @hugo 2054 times
Big Crunch(216046: @invisible 126 times
Big Crunch(216046: @ipcheck 5 times
Big Crunch(216046: @jump 108 times
Big Crunch(216046: @kick 19 times
Big Crunch(216046: @kill 18 times
Big Crunch(216046: @killmonster 1 time
Big Crunch(216046: @killmonster2 11 times
Big Crunch(216046: @linus 30 times
Big Crunch(216046: @pvpoff 15 times
Big Crunch(216046: @pvpon 14 times
Big Crunch(216046: @recall 22 times
Big Crunch(216046: @return 76 times
Big Crunch(216046: @revive 6 times
Big Crunch(216046: @save 1 time
Big Crunch(216046: @spawn 236 times
Big Crunch(216046: @storeall 1 time
Big Crunch(216046: @visible 119 times
Big Crunch(216046: @warp 18 times
Big Crunch(216046: @whogm 28 times
Big Crunch(216046: @whomap 1 time

Narus(21212: @block 2 times
Narus(21212: @charstats 2 times
Narus(21212: @goto 6 times
Narus(21212: @hide 71 times
Narus(21212: @hugo 1409 times
Narus(21212: @invisible 25 times
Narus(21212: @kick 1 time
Narus(21212: @linus 6 times
Narus(21212: @pvpoff 2 times
Narus(21212: @pvpon 3 times
Narus(21212: @recall 9 times
Narus(21212: @return 12 times
Narus(21212: @save 1 time
Narus(21212: @spawn 58 times
Narus(21212: @unblock 1 time
Narus(21212: @visible 35 times
Narus(21212: @warp 17 times
Narus(21212: @whogm 5 times

Prsm(210293: @ban 11 times
Prsm(210293: @block 2 times
Prsm(210293: @charbaselvl 1 time
Prsm(210293: @charskreset 2 times
Prsm(210293: @charstats 11 times
Prsm(210293: @charstreset 2 times
Prsm(210293: @goto 82 times
Prsm(210293: @hide 451 times
Prsm(210293: @hugo 7252 times
Prsm(210293: @invisible 389 times
Prsm(210293: @kick 3 times
Prsm(210293: @kill 7 times
Prsm(210293: @l banned 1 time
Prsm(210293: @linus 112 times
Prsm(210293: @pvpoff 4 times
Prsm(210293: @pvpon 4 times
Prsm(210293: @recall 3 times
Prsm(210293: @return 104 times
Prsm(210293: @revive 8 times
Prsm(210293: @save 1 time
Prsm(210293: @spawn 69 times
Prsm(210293: @unban 1 time
Prsm(210293: @visible 284 times
Prsm(210293: @warp botcheck 3 times
Prsm(210293: @whogm 5 times


Tiana(209065: @ban 1 time
Tiana(209065: @block 2 times
Tiana(209065: @goto 4 times
Tiana(209065: @hide 5 times
Tiana(209065: @hugo 851 times
Tiana(209065: @invisible 27 times
Tiana(209065: @linus 3 times
Tiana(209065: @return 16 times
Tiana(209065: @spawn 20 times
Tiana(209065: @visible 18 times
Tiana(209065: @warp 3 times
Tiana(209065: @whogm 8 times

[yourmistakes]

OMG! CALL THE ADMINS!!!! TIANA HASN''T BEEN TURNING ON PVP ENOUGH!

[DarkWater]

Ok, now I get my turn.

1.) The GM's don't actually make this world, they only are here to enforce the rules. The people that make the world have 100% control over the game play in the world. If they say no, it is no, end of subject. They don't want you to revive, kill, die, or what ever they want, they get. IT IS PART OF BEING A DEVELOPER!!! If the gm wants to lay code and/or help a developer in their day to day activities, it needs to be clearly marked in the gm log.

2.) Gm's are not here to make friends, have a good time, or use commands as they see fit, they are here to enforce the rules and to help with bugs and server errors. What does that specifically mean? If they see someone breaking the rules, they need to deal with the person. If, like last year I was re-spawned on a little island and was warped off, that to falls into the category of debugging. What part of that job description don't you understand? If you are killing, reviving, or teleporting someone just for fun, that is abuse of the powers given to you buy the community.


So just a quick recap, gm's should not use the power that is given to them, unless it is for 1.) A specific event in which that power is applied equally to everyone. IE spawn parties, pvp parties, drop parties, and chest runs. AND IT DOES NOT INTERFERE WITH THE WISHES OF THE DEVELOPMENT TEAM. 2.) To enforce the rules. I could see the die command being useful to understand bots. 3.) Rescuing players and debugging the server.

Anything outside of those rules is abuse. Period.


Now...why?

The answer is simply this, if the use of the powers is outside of this realm, it disrupts game play that is specifically being designed by other people that have a long term goal in mind. The only people that should have 100% control over anything in the game is the developers, community elected game moderators are not suppose to design or have control over this game play. They can surely help, and as a game developer, different hat, they could use the game commands to see how the effects of development is on a player. But they are not given that ability from the community, you are given that ability from the development team. You where elected by the community, not the development team. Which means you have zero right to use those commands with out the developments help.

But they are not game developers, they are game moderators. They are here to enforce the rules, any behavior outside of that realm should be viewed as disruption of the game and a seriously violation of community trust.

I am also upset and disturbed with the lack of documentation that is happening on the gm log. I hope the GHP will look at this issue seriously and create a set of rules for the game moderators to follow.

Rain.

[DarkWater]

Why not doing a vote?

It can not be up for a vote, because what is being given away is not the communities right to give.

We wanted, all we ever wanted, was self determination. The ability to have us, rule ourselves. Commands that are used for development of the game, is not in the realm of the community to decide, the makers of the game decide that, and if they choose to make a poll, then they have the right to.

There has to be a very clear line where the community stops and the natural world beings. The community should not have anymore control over the natural world as we do in real life. The community in the real world should not be able to rule over death, it is a natural thing.

How the game is created is up to the development team; the community and game moderators should not interfere with the natural world they create.

If you wish the community to have a vote on the game play and natural world, then make everyone a gm an call it a week.

[mistergrey]

Okay, and now my turn. Do you seriously expect someone to be GM, to sit there and Just do the botchecks and responsibilities, listen to people complain 24/7 about trivial things, and not have a little fun?

First of all DW, why are you all of a sudden talking like you care about what "the people that make the game" want? Before, all I ever saw was you talking about how they're developing the game wrong, how they manage the economy wrong, etc. I may not have agreed with you before, but I did respect that you stuck to your arguments and carried them through. Using the developers' intentions now when it suits you seems kind of hypocritical.

Speaking of nice moves, I like how in your latest crusade you've thrown not only our new GM Prsm, but also BC, under the bus to make your point. So, if your point is that GMs should NEVER use their commands for anything but their responsibilities, I guess that means there should never be spawning, pvp events, announcements, or really anything that is fun for people right?

I'm disappointed really, usually you wouldn't go this far without some big, dramatic piece of evidence that gives you some plausibility. All you've given us to ponder is a list of gm commands used, which to anyone but you would show that they've actually been active and willing to interact with people. The GMs have done nothing that could be considered abuse, if anything the commands associated with abuse have only been used on friends they know will laugh about it. You say it's unfair for them to use commands on some but not others, but it's done in a joking situation, usually in town, where it neither benefits nor hinders anyone's gameplay. I've never once say, died in the GY and been resurrected by one of my GM buddies, or had it used to any personal benefit. If anything I've been the butt of some of their jokes, and laughed about it like I said.

At this point I'm not sure I'd wanna see what a game ran to your specifications would look like, by the time you're done ridding it of everything and anything anyone can find some way to complain about, there will be no game left to play.

[dayve]

Speaking of nice moves, I like how in your latest crusade you've thrown not only our new GM Prsm, but also BC, under the bus to make your point. So, if your point is that GMs should NEVER use their commands for anything but their responsibilities, I guess that means there should never be spawning, pvp events, announcements, or really anything that is fun for people right?

its funny that only the people who received favor seem to defend them. its funnier still that if there is no wrong here that other GMs feel no need to do this. Most funny to me is that prsm admitted he was wrong and stopped doing it.

oh, and i am not dark water.

[mistergrey]

You'll notice most of my reply was directed at DW, wasn't implying that you're the same person. But ok, I'll bite. I certainly do feel favored, being random-killed in town is the greatest honor imaginable. How else do you see me being favored at all? That I'm friendly with the GMs? Of course I am, I'm friendly with just about anybody.

You wonder why the other GMs don't do as much of those things, or why the current ones you're targeting aren't here defending themselves? It's because you and DW have decided that the GMs need to be accountable to you, for whatever you deem wrong. The others don't want to be active with the community, not because they don't enjoy doing those things, but because of those who will always complain about something. And why would the ones you're targeting even bother? All I see right now are people who want something to argue about, that don't hesitate to screw with friends to do it.

In closing, I'll refute another point: In regards to the comment about what the makers of the game did and didn't intend, I'm also fairly sure level 99 wasn't meant to be reached in a month via botting, but you guys sure didn't hesitate to take advantage there. I don't give a damn about automation one way or another, I just think you need to stick to your stance and stop switching sides when it's convenient.

[dayve]

You wonder why the other GMs don't do as much of those things, or why the current ones you're targeting aren't here defending themselves?

the list i put up on GM commands go back 90 days. No other GM seem to use them for 80 days before this started. No other GM has come forward to defend these actions, and one told prsm to stop, that it was wrong. Neither dark water nor i have called for there removal just the reverse, i have several times said that the GHP is at fault as they have not give the GMs the leadership they require!

Its sad when you are so weak that you must call people names. If i had been botting at anytime it up to the GMs to determine that and if you say they did there job so poorly that they could not see , as you do, that i was botting then all the GMs need to be replaced. You can open that on another post, if you wish to remove them.

[yourmistakes]

Its sad when you are so weak that you must call people names. If i had been botting at anytime it up to the GMs to determine that and if you say they did there job so poorly that they could not see , as you do, that i was botting then all the GMs need to be replaced. You can open that on another post, if you wish to remove them.

i think (as well as just about everyone else) it's fair to say that running 3 or more clients at once transcends automation and could be defined as botting.

[o11c]

It's funny that only the people who received favor seem to defend them.

I have not seen/do not see any abuse of GM power personally or in the logs.
GMs are not mindless drones to enforce the rules, but people who are trusted by the community with a measure of power, for the intent of making a safer and more enjoyable playing environment.

The only case in which the GMs have failed their responsibility to the players is in not making a rule against multibotting.
(If an AI ever evolves that is capable of having fun in a social and acceptable manner, then I won't have a problem if it plays TMW. Until then, they're just ruining it for the real players)