The Love Triangle Quest just got a lot harder

[Techron]

Due to the graveyard reset, the Love Triangle Quest, specifically the Aldred Simple Ring sub-quest, has gotten much harder. Shortly after the Love Triangle Quest was brought to its inception, the number of items needed for the quest was cut in half, thus making the quest less of a grind, but also in effect, causing the rewards to be cheapened. None the less, the issue at hand is that the slaying of undead zombies and fallen have become very difficult especially if you are alone in the graveyard. Does anyone have a suggestion, comment, or empathy about this issue?

Techron

[Cassy]

Nard reminded me on this last time we talked a few days ago.
This is indeed rather troublesome...

For now you could of course just ask some friends to help you or try to lure the skulls away with an alt... I don't know if it still counts when this alt is dead so the skulls don't wander back.
I can also help you if you want... my char Biqcassy is a mage and therefore doesn't have problems with skulls.

For the future:
Would it make sense to change the quest so you have to kill the Tipsy/Drunken (Lady) Skeletons in the graveyard inn?
Of course changing the dialogue as well then.

Dunno how other players and devs think about this.

[Chay]

mrm well it's a minigame and i it finally got hard. That's a good thing. TMW needs challenges imo, if that's one - good! Also yes, it requires group effort now, i'd call it a feature.

a different issue is the drops though...

[Nard]

Reid'inn quests sequence was designed with old gy in mind this is no news. One of the strong points of Jenalya's designs is that she took a great care of collective playing and story consistency. I am afraid that replacing zombie and fallen by inn mobs will break both of them, and would also make the quest far too easier.
I also think that the previous gy mobs "AI" was difficult enough for "high" level players.The Tux-Cassy new Tonori maps makes it even more true since they (should) make the number of gy players lower, thus the place harder. The actual gy configuration is interesting in the way that it unveals many problems. I think though that it is doesn't bring any fun to the place, it doesn't make it harder (except for the above mentioned quests which is supposed to be level 80). The only effect is that it lowers experience gain rate and raises price for mages and archers, it also makes the raging skill a must for warriors while speed ones will disappear.
If new AIs are to be introduced please keep in mind that everything is inter-dependant: In the present example, mobs can diffuse all over a map. If you attach mobs to a specific area care must be taken about the spawning areas and the mob numbers because of the potential barrier they can represent. In my opinion this would make the map design somewhat harder; Another aspect is that players will no more able to set traps by bringing hers of mobs at specific points of a map (some may remind Gina's GY event which was kind of funny). But if you really want this I think it would be better to attach mobs to their spawning area with a drawback force. Something like:
If mob is inside area, then drawback force equals zero,
For aggros and attacked mobs: If player is insight follow and attack it until distance to area gravity center reaches a maximum, (player drive force>draw back force)
when max distance is reached or player is no more in sight range, return to area (player drive force<draw back force).
When AI is to be touched, I would prefer first that mobs should regenerate, like player does (except undead? unless some dark magic?)
Second, I'd like that elemental/ magic/physical/ damage and sensitivity would be enabled for both mobs and players: This would open degrees of freedom in content development, and more potential activity for warriors: dodge/parry/feint/evade... piercing/slashing/bashing damages might work as spells do, and allow shielding activity. (this I am not sure about).
I think that skulls, spectres(who kills them in swamps?) and Jacko are have a wrong design. They are either too "strong" or too "weak": too strong when they are considered as mobs (they should be killable the about same way by each "class", their actual status leads to over-strength of player and unbalance) to weak to be real bosses (bosses should require collective action as Luvia does).

[Hello=)]

For now you could of course just ask some friends to help you or try to lure the skulls away with an alt...

This is MMORPG and you're supposed to cooperate with others a bit. Skulls drive you mad? Ok, ask some mages/bansheers/ragers to join - they do not mind getting rid of few skulls. Fire skulls are also nice source of ash. Also skulls are slow so if you're absolutely sure you want to solo, you can lure some skele/zombie away from skulls if you really want it. Sure, it requires more advanced tactics. Actually the mere fact you can come, select monster, hit "X" and safely wait for few minutes provoked half-AFK fights and primitive forms of botting instead of players cooperation. So I'm against such forms of cheating and think they should be thwarted. On other hand, since difficulty possibly increased, some constants in quest could need tweaks. But care should be taken to prevent cheaters storing stuff to freezer making it too easy at these lower constants. Granted the idea was to get rid of such cheating I think it's wrong idea to recommend such actions from dev's side, Cassy.

/me thinks it's one of adjustments which makes at least some part of TMW "botting-unfriendly". Actually things like this should be in the very core of MMORPG design.

And ideally mobs should regenerate + guard their spawn location, returning to that place after stopping chasing players (that's where Nard haves some point). But AFAIK logic like this is troublesome to implement right now.

[thusmark]

I actually completed the Aldred sub-quest when I was alone in gy and didn't find it at all difficult.

you want to solo, you can lure some skele/zombie away

That's exactly what I did. Heck, I lured Zombies away, started attacking them, and went to another workspace to do something else. Thankfully, one can tell when a Zombie di ... errr ... is destroyed because of audio. /me hopes this isn't considered illegal.

The mob I really came to hate while doing this quest was the ... Slime Blast!

[Hello=)]

That's exactly what I did. Heck, I lured Zombies away, started attacking them,

Thanks for confirming it can work. Then I do not get why there is complaint it's "hard". And I would agree exploding slimes are probably the worst nightmare of warriors. Though other classes can meet their death on other monsters. Being fully invulnerable is wrong and boring.

when a Zombie di ... errr ... is destroyed because of audio. /me hopes this isn't considered illegal.

As far as I understand, under current rules formally it is okay. But in my personal opinion it's an indication of fundamental flaw in game battle mechanic. From my personal opinion there is no big difference if someone bots in fully automatic way or hits x once and goes semi-AFK. The result for everyone around is nearly same if we take a look on how gameplay looks. However in this particular case I would rather blame game melee battles mechanic and balancing which is "not epic" to say the least and provokes botting or bot-style (almost non-interactive) gameplay.

[Techron]

Okay, it took me an hour and 20 minutes, about 3000 arrows, and 20 potions; about twice as hard as it used to be. I did say it was harder, not impossible. A person has a right to complain and voice their opinion. The one thing human nature does not tolerate well is change.

Techron

[Cassy]

A person has a right to complain and voice their opinion.

Absolutely - we really need feedback so thanks for your (none-flame) complain

This is MMORPG and you're supposed to cooperate with others a bit.

Yup, that's why my first suggestion was to ask others or myself for help
But you know, sometimes there is no help and you just want to that particular quest.

Granted the idea was to get rid of such cheating I think it's wrong idea to recommend such actions from dev's side, Cassy.

As long as it's possible and legal to do so I prefer speaking as a player to help another one.
Also that's a very common way used for ages I mentioned and no super secret bug exploit.

I am afraid that replacing zombie and fallen by inn mobs will break both of them, and would also make the quest far too easier.

To avoid a misunderstanding: I wasn't talking about replacing mobs in the graveyard, only changing the quest script so it's a gy inn monster that stole the ring (and better also change the chance to get it back so it's not too easy).
This was just a fast idea though, thinking about it now I don't even like it myself anymore

It's a bit sad that the release of the crypts would also solve this problem as the mobs in the graveyards would be easier then.
On the other hand if I remember correctly wushin deleted the Fallen and Zombie spawn places so the Love Triangle Quest script would have had to be changed too.

[Nard]

To avoid a misunderstanding: I wasn't talking about replacing mobs in the graveyard, only changing the quest script so it's a gy inn monster that stole the ring (and better also change the chance to get it back so it's not too easy).
This was just a fast idea though, thinking about it now I don't even like it myself anymore

It's a bit sad that the release of the crypts would also solve this problem as the mobs in the graveyards would be easier then.
On the other hand if I remember correctly wushin deleted the Fallen and Zombie spawn places so the Love Triangle Quest script would have had to be changed too.

That' exactly what we understood Cassy, and to avoid any misunderstanding again. I agree with t3st3r and Techron, the gy is not more challenging, it makes the quest a bit more harder/longer , gy is now a bit more annoying/expensive in my opinion that's all.

[Hello=)]

But you know, sometimes there is no help and you just want to that particular quest.

Could be some issue. Yet, if someone can handle zombies, few skulls around shouldn't be major danger. Some annoyance at very most.

As long as it's possible and legal to do so I prefer speaking as a player to help another one.

You can see local gain. But fail to see global impact. Which is: half-AFK players with half-botting attitude (erm, this thread has got nice example), multiboxing on GY and so on. Akk this makes TMW gameplay worse than it should be IMO. It's "possible" and "legal" to do quite many things. But not all of them would lead to good results.

[wushin]

I had once planned in my crypts to spread the monster diffuculty out further.
Basically the GY & swamp below it had:
1) Grass Snakes as there are really too few to farm
2) Skeletons, Lady Skeletons and all the wisps, poltergiests, etc.
3) Skulls, Fallen, Jacko, Zombies were all removed

On the first level of the Crypts (027-3):
1) I place Skeletons & Lady Skeletons (fewer)
2) Zombies, Fallen (ring quest ones)
3) Skulls (They can be corraled but where you would put them they would get moved by foot traffic similiar to the ones in the mine)
4) A Cindylike boss fight
Each layer lower has an increasing level of diffuculty. It was meant to lead up to the underworld.
It was meant to make the GY (50-60), then bump 10 levels per map down.
3 maps so 60, 70, 80. Plus Underworld was meant to be 90+ Illia preparation.

As for Mob Behavior
As a player I long complained about being able to corral and drop a large set of mobs in one area.
IMO, a greater benefit should be sought in the TMWA code for Mob Ai than any fix content dev could provide as #itenplz, summons, and other such exploits really rely on our code more than a bot or skill.

[Nard]

1) Grass Snakes as there are really too few to farm

imo there are many unused areas in 018-1 and more generally in northern woodlands/hills that could be opened to players and to developers for further quests and/or events. I remind to have sought the way to the upper parts of the hills, to the bridges in 011-1 (for a long time ) when I explored this area first.

As for Mob Behavior
As a player I long complained about being able to corral and drop a large set of mobs in one area.
IMO, a greater benefit should be sought in the TMWA code for Mob Ai than any fix content dev could provide as #itenplz, summons, and other such exploits really rely on our code more than a bot or skill.

I am not sure those are necessarily exploits and that modifying mob ai on this particular point is a must: On one side driving the skulls away from the area were they spawned is an exploit regarding the map developer's original intentions, on the other side it allows collective playing strategy, just as it was originally described by Nathan at the entrance of Tulimshar mine, when he taught about the itenplz spell. (Sorry I could not find the before-2010 update dialog). Maybe it would be possible to use this "corralling" possibility to design new quests parts; something like as: "you have to gather x monsters and drive them into my paddock. Take care that no nasty mob z enter, they would kill those you already brought" or "please help me to drive my herd safely from area A to B but beware the road is full of dangers..."

The swamp area, and it's monsters, does not fit their purpose in my opinion. They were probably designed to fill the gap we all see. Wombat, Crush, Freeyorp may enlighten us about their intentions. Perhaps should we focus more on this area, its mobs and their drops than on gy so it could be better than a nice landscape. At the moment, its main interest is fast levelling of low level chars of experienced players.

[wushin]

At least we agree more grass snakes and that there is plenty of unused space.
I only wanted them on 027-1 and 026-1 to force people to sit in GY Inn or Caretakers house. Plus for the chance when everyone is running out of the GY that the snakes get a few kills in the chaos of when that happens.
But meh. Anywhere is fine in Argaes.

[Nard]

I only wanted them on 027-1 and 026-1 to force people to sit in GY Inn or Caretakers house. Plus for the chance when everyone is running out of the GY that the snakes get a few kills in the chaos of when that happens.

Why? I can't see the point. Sitting outside caretaker's has always been risky because lower level players have (had?) often to flee, and drag aggros to the map entrance.