Player Classes?

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Kyokai
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Player Classes?

Post by Kyokai » 15 Feb 2005, 05:18

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but what are the player classes?

I am a bit opposed to the Novice class, like Ragnarok Online has. I think we should use a more open-ended class system, similar to FFXI. It just makes more sense to start people out in their jobs rather than forcing them to be useless n00bs for 10 levels and spending their easiest and most important levels building the basic skills. Some players new to MMORPGs might need this, but a tutorial does it all jsut as well.

As for classes, I suggest:

Knight - Heavy Weapons and Armor, a good physical fighter, one that can protect more than deal damage though.
MageKnight - Medium Weapons and Armor with some enfeebling magic. Think Red Mage.
Healer - Light Weapons and Armor with recovery and safety magic, like the girl in SoM.
Warlock- Light Weapons and Armor with heavy destructive magic and area magic, like the sprite in SoM.
Juggernaut - Heavy Weapons and Light Armor. All about fast, physical damage.


Those 5 cover about everything that a good party needs. I'll come up with some prestige classes later. You should get prestige classes by completing certain quests that SHOULD NOT have a level minimum. Level minimums SUCK, and I think most MMORPG gamers agree with me. :x

Anyway, let's hear everyone's ideas for extra classes and basic classes.
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Post by Talaroc » 15 Feb 2005, 06:11

My two cents--If classes are used, I would actually like to see characters start out "classless." But not like RO; no level minimum to change. In this way, characters could avoid specialization for a while, get a feel for how they play and such, and go ahead and get a class when they feel like it. In this (or even your) setup, I would encourage a rather expanded number of classes (and I mean basic ones). Five may be all a party needs--but what about all the different styles of play? I might have a completely different idea of how to play a knight than you do. For the sake of player options, more classes.

Alternately, I have to wonder: given the two other discussions going on right now on related topics (skills/attributes and jobs), are classes even necessary? If the characters start out as a "blank slate" (with a degree of char-gen customization, of course), onto which skills and attributes are built up through play, and can acquire, leave, and change jobs at any time, what function does having set classes serve? They don't really have any RL parallel; it's just an old job system, basically.
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Post by maci » 15 Feb 2005, 13:14

well fixed classes... hm i dislike the idea

but wat wou could do is maybe .. well stats are flexible.
but the player could join sth lika "classes guild" so he can identify with the class he want to be.. wel he can be because stats are flexible... and so this is better becaus everyone is different
but those who wants to be erm "ninja" well they get much ability and joinn "ninja-"guild""
well this shouldnt be a really guild .. it should be so that if he want other ppl to know that he is a ninja so he can join the ninja thingy and other ppl can see it
ElvenProgrammer wrote:Maci: don't be rude, we're here to help people ;)
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Post by Kyokai » 15 Feb 2005, 17:33

He does need some sort of title, otherwise people wouldn't know exactly what he can and can't do (and thus wouldn't invite him into a party). Fixed classes aren't totally necessary... maybe when a player's stats and skills reach a certain level, he autmatically gains his titles.

Still... Classes give order to a confusing world, and I think the other MMORPGs are still using them for a reason other than that it's always been done that way.
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Post by Talaroc » 15 Feb 2005, 17:58

Dynamic, stat-generated titles would certainly work. Indeed, that would actually be really quite cool. I just think that, on the whole, rigid classes force the player to pigeonhole their character too much.
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Post by Kyokai » 15 Feb 2005, 23:31

ok then, I'll put some thought into what sort of stats would determine our classes. The real question is how to prevent mages from fighting as well as swordsmen, and vice versa...
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Post by Talaroc » 15 Feb 2005, 23:37

Why prevent them? If this is all just based upon the skills people build up, let them build their character however they choose. If a player spends ungodly amounts of time to build a character capable of outfighting knights and outcasting sorcerers, good for that player, let them use what they've got. I mean, bear in mind, in a system like this, it takes a lot of use of any one skill to develop proficiency in that skill.
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RE

Post by Bear » 16 Feb 2005, 05:41

These are just suggestions but what about... this

Acolyte: Supportive Magic
Warrior: Mid level weaponry +Battle skills
Thief: Steals, based on speed
Sniper: Bow & Arrow(Depends i guess -_-)
Mage: Uses Black Magic
Monk: Used in White Magic/SOME supportive skills much less than acolytes mostly uses fists

Then this is my version of job changing:
When your at a certain level, you can choose to change to the second job or Fuse current jobs.

Acolyte= White Knight, Arcane Hunter, (No thief -_-), White Mage, (No Monk)

Warrior= White Knight(Acolyte), Ranger(Sniper), Dark Knight(Mage), Crusader(Monk), Rogue Knight(Thief),

Thief=Rogue Knight(warrior),Hunter(Sniper),Assassin(Mage)

Sniper= Arcane Hunter(Acolyte),Ranger(Warrior),Dark Hunter(Mage)
Hunter(Thief)

Mage= Dark Hunter(Sniper),Dark Knight(Warrior),Assassin(Thief),Dark Monk(Monk) White Mage(Acolyte)

Monk= Dark Monk(Mage),Crusader(Warrior),

Second Class If people dont want to fuse Jobs, they can just go to the next level:
Mage-Wizard
Acolyte-Priest
Warrior-Knight
Sniper-Dragoon
Thief-Bandit
Monk-Fighter
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Post by Kyokai » 16 Feb 2005, 05:59

sounds a bit interesting. Check the Wiki board post on the job system and see what you think about that. Each of the jobs you mentioned represents a possible guild. How would you translate them and what ranks would you have?
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Post by MathGeek » 16 Feb 2005, 07:00

I hope this class system isn't set in stone yet. Why do you need classes in a game? I'd prefer to let people play a character however they want without the limitations of classes.

If you really want to give people titles then why not create associations / guilds within the game, that a character can advance through? A player could also completely avoid these organizations and remain anonymous.
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Post by Kyokai » 16 Feb 2005, 07:59

That's just what I've come up with so far. Check it out on the Wiki Board

The Job and Class Post on Wiki Board

It needs to be set in stone soon, so I can start working more deeply on the other systems, so please give as much input as you can.
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Jetryl

Post by Jetryl » 16 Feb 2005, 15:49

Consider the following. Spells and most skills scale somewhat exponentially in form, such that one who has a lot of skill in them is a lot better than someone without - not "linearly" better.

BUT, the requirement in "skill points" or what for, also goes up by such, on a per-skill basis. This would work especially well if skills improve on a direct usage basis.

Thus, it takes a lot of practice to get "good" at something, but you get a nice payoff when you do. It's not too hard to dabble in everything, but it takes several times more work than that to even be decent at everything.

Plus, certain skills, like magic, would have barriers to initial entry - you have to join the guild before they teach you the basics.


A character, upon creation, could be either pre-initiated into certain guilds, or could be set up with an initial skill set for a fighter, etc. Basically, you start the game set up to be a certain class, but can go from there wherever you please.

Those who focus on many skills will have many skills, but those who focus on singular skills will be far better at their use than a jack-of-all-trades.
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Post by Kyokai » 16 Feb 2005, 16:27

Jetryl wrote:Consider the following. Spells and most skills scale somewhat exponentially in form, such that one who has a lot of skill in them is a lot better than someone without - not "linearly" better.

BUT, the requirement in "skill points" or what for, also goes up by such, on a per-skill basis. This would work especially well if skills improve on a direct usage basis.

I forgot to point this out in the skills section, and it's my fault for doing so, but skills improve at a linear rate, only the rate of improvement is exponential. A player with a level 5 skill isn't twice as skilled as a level 4 player, but he has worked twice as long.
Jetryl wrote:Thus, it takes a lot of practice to get "good" at something, but you get a nice payoff when you do. It's not too hard to dabble in everything, but it takes several times more work than that to even be decent at everything.
This is really what's at the heart of the system. And I thank you for pointing it out like that.
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Post by Bjørn » 17 Feb 2005, 02:54

Kyokai wrote:I forgot to point this out in the skills section, and it's my fault for doing so, but skills improve at a linear rate, only the rate of improvement is exponential. A player with a level 5 skill isn't twice as skilled as a level 4 player, but he has worked twice as long.
Exponential rate of improvement scared me a little, until I realized you meant to use an exponent less than 1. :-)

I don't think I've said this yet, though I discussed it on IRC, but my preference would go towards a system without absolute maximum levels. Making it exponentially hard (with an exponent higher than 1 now :-)) to improve should still make sure there is a certain level at which levelling up any more takes too much effort for the reward. In my opinion we should tweak this system so that it'll take about a month of play to get a character to this point. You'll keep improving slowly, but at that point other aspects of the game should come into play, like team play, playing special roles in guilds or government, quests (which play a role from the start, but maybe more so now), hostility between provinces or guilds, monster threatening certain areas, etc.

I think this level at which levelling up itself isn't rewarding enough anymore is important, because levelling up by itself doesn't scale and doesn't stay fun either. You'll get people asking for stronger monsters and more dangerous areas in a whim, they'll level up even more, and the situation repeats. It is also realistic, simply because the human body has limits in how far you can train it. This would be the case for both physical and magical properties. This will create the situation where eventually you will share the game with comparably trained players, only specialized in different areas. This I think is very important to make the game more fun in the long run.
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Post by Rotonen » 17 Feb 2005, 14:04

My idea: the kingdom you join defines the "class" you're going to play, but does not bind you to that class. Just that the "class specific" quests and equipment will be binded to the kingdom, not to your character.
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