Magic System --- Here is is!

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Magic System --- Here is is!

Post by Kyokai » 16 Feb 2005, 00:58

The Magic System so far is posted on the Wiki Board under "GameSystems"!

Please read it and give some input!
We welcome your suggestions.

Also---looking for an artist to support the magic system. The elemental spirits will probably serve as icons for the game, so preferrably someone who can draw especially memorable things. Please IM or IRC me for more info.
Last edited by Kyokai on 16 Feb 2005, 06:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Talaroc » 16 Feb 2005, 02:40

Ok, my thoughts.

Great spirit, sage, temple, town.dungeon combo: pretty direct rip, don't you think? Personally, I'd like to see a bit more variation. I mean, the great spirit would be necessary, but a sage isn't always, and although there should be a special area for the spirit, and some could certainly be temples, there's far more options out there. A few quick ones off the top of my head: a chunk of non-space (astral plane?) that a player enters through a hidden portal for the time spirit's domain, a stairway to a towering, wind-swept peak that for magical reasons it is always night upon, that the space spirit sometimes visits, an undersea domain of the water spirit that you can't actually go to, but must have the helper ferry messages back and forth, and so on.

Spells: again, more variation. The end-all, be-all problem with standardization is: it's boring. It'd be a lot more interesting if a person's style of play predisposed them toward different elements: say, fire for direct damage and bestowing attacks, water for removing status effects and healing, earth for area damage and bestowing characters, that sort of thing. Otherwise, the only reason for anyone to choose different schools of magic is based on the resistances of various monsters. This is also much more in line with magickal (yes, with a k) theory, which incorporates the associations of the elements in a big way.

Names: Yes, the names were taken from mythology in SoM (well, some of them; others were just latin), but there's other mythological names out there, too. I can look some up for you if you like. Also, unless I'm mistaken, an Incubus is a demon; the male version of a succubus. I don't think that particularly meshes well.

Skill level: I wouldn't want to cap the level for skills at 10. In anything. I'd take a page from pen-and-paper games and MUD's for this, and do all skills, magic included, by percentage (so, 100 levels). If people are going to be playing this for a length of time, there needs to be a great deal of progressing they can do. That would also make leveling skills quicker and easier, which is gratifying in play, even if you don't get much out of each individual level.
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Post by Kyokai » 16 Feb 2005, 04:45

Thanks for the input, Talaroc. I'll be sure to incorporate it all as soon as I can and as best as I can.

The sages, dungeons, town combination is a bit generic, I admit. Try to think of it as a starting point for your stories rather than Dogma.
- Each temple should be accessible to beginning level players, but also hold challenges for the high level players. Temples don't necessarily have to be "Temples", so to say, it would be interesting to see how the spirits energies have twisted the realms to their own taste.
- Sages aren't necessary at all, but you do have to get instruction from some sort of NPC, keep this in mind when writing the quests. I'll use sage in a general sense to mean "the person who gives and recieves quest items".
- A town probably exists somewhere in the shadow of the elemetnal spirit's influcence, and their culture would reflect it.
Talaroc wrote:Spells: again, more variation. The end-all, be-all problem with standardization is: it's boring. It'd be a lot more interesting if a person's style of play predisposed them toward different elements:
I think I understand what you mean. It's important to find a good balance in the variety of spells native to each element, however, there are also spells that each element needs to have (like the bestow element property spells) Once we get these basic spells out of the way, I'll try to come up with more inventive ones.
Talaroc wrote:Also, unless I'm mistaken, an Incubus is a demon; the male version of a succubus. I don't think that particularly meshes well.
My fault, it was Kobold in the list that I saw, not incubus (It's been along time since I read Faust, and I used the names of the elemental spirits he invoked as the main 4). I really need a better name for the earth spirit, because neither of these work especially well. Any suggestions?[
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Post by Talaroc » 16 Feb 2005, 05:15

Well, I'm an artist, not a writer (at this point), but I'll give ideas if people like.

In terms of names, I found a few from old folk legends...only for the four "basic" elements right now, but I'm sure I can dig up something appropriate for the others given some time.
Each of these is supposedly the "elemental king" of each element.
Fire: Djin
Water: Niksa
Air: Paralda
Earth: Ghob
There's also given the "elemental rulers..."
Fire: Seraph
Water: Tharsis
Air: Ariel
Earth: Kerub
There's plenty to look at, you've just got to decide what culture it comes from. Actually, given the anime-styling of the game, old Shinto names might be appropriate. Something to think about.
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Post by Kyokai » 16 Feb 2005, 06:29

Talaroc, I also PM'd you about doing the art for the magic system. Do you think you'd be interested? You seem to be really into it.

Can you turn the elmentals into iconic (mascot) figures, like the poring from RO? We need images that are readily associated with the mana world. Try to keep this in mind and use a definitive, catchy art style--not too cute, but not too realistic either. I look forward to seeing what you can do.

PS: The Elemental Rulers names are good. I think we'll adopt those for now.
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Post by Bjørn » 16 Feb 2005, 12:33

About the graphics to be created, it would be preferable to tell Rotonen what you need. He's the man all artists are supposed to talk to and he should be able to hand over the job to one of them. I bestowed already a big task on Talaroc, namely the new player sprite. :)

About the different schools of magic, I like that, but make sure they feel vastly different. I think it's better to have less schools (like the 4 above) with more variation in spells than more schools with less variation in spells.
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Post by Kyokai » 16 Feb 2005, 16:22

Bjørn wrote:About the graphics to be created, it would be preferable to tell Rotonen what you need. He's the man all artists are supposed to talk to and he should be able to hand over the job to one of them. I bestowed already a big task on Talaroc, namely the new player sprite. :)

About the different schools of magic, I like that, but make sure they feel vastly different. I think it's better to have less schools (like the 4 above) with more variation in spells than more schools with less variation in spells.
I see. I'll have to ask Rotonen then.

As for the school list, I think only 4 major elements can be really bland. In a world with 10000 people, if they belong to one of 4 schools, that's 2500 per school, but with 8 it's 1250 per school. 10000 is a small number for an MMORPG, and everyone knowing the same spells--be they 8 spells or 20 spells--an get somewhat boring.
Hopefully once I get past the minimums started in the outline, a bigger variety of spells will emerge. I will do my best to individualize the spell lists and make each school distinct in what it can and can not do.
As you can see, there are now 3 Generic Spells and 5 Unique Spells per element in the Wiki Board Outline. This should do alot to make the elemental schools more individualized.
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Post by Argh » 16 Feb 2005, 18:31

Hi Kyokai!

#1: I like that approach about getting new spells by completing (maybe automaticly generated) quests - it would make the process of getting a new spell MUCH more special and juicy for the involved player: it makes a big difference if you just buy a mighty spell than to have to complete a special quest (whichs complexity and challenge may depend on the mightyness of the spell).

#2: I personnally dislike this idea about creatures bound to the partular elements that cast the spells, although I never played SoM, it sounds a bit strange to me ;-)
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Post by Kyokai » 16 Feb 2005, 19:51

Argh wrote:#2: I personnally dislike this idea about creatures bound to the partular elements that cast the spells, although I never played SoM, it sounds a bit strange to me ;-)
I was probably a bit unclear when I explained about the elemental spirits. The player actually does cast the spell, the elemental spirit just appears when he casts the spell mainly for asthetic value, as they did in SoM.

For storyline purposes, it is the spirit that channels mana into a spell, but in effect, the player does it himself.
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Post by Talaroc » 18 Feb 2005, 00:16

Some spell ideas to share (only for wind and time right now, haven't thought much about the others yet), and a few ideas on focuses for each school of magic. Some of the spells I made complimentary; I think it would be fun if the schools of magic helped each other out, when it works in terms of elements.

Wind: I see auramancers (I'm getting these names from a latin dictionary; they should all be right) as having a decent mix of effects; being able to deal decent direct damage, but focusing more on controlling what an opponent can or can't do. Additionally, wind can carry other things in it, so I think auramancer spells should be the most capable of being enhanced by other elements (works with any other element).
*Downdraft--Single target. Traps target under a forceful pillar of wind; they can't move or cast (except wind spells, perhaps), but can perform melee attacks at a reduced effectiveness if approached.
*Updraft--Small area of effect. A forceful pillar of wind blocks any opponents from moving through the target area.
*Backdraft--Area of effect. Any other elemental damage spells cast at an opponent within the area hit twice.
*Tailwind strike--Character effect. The player, pushed forward by wind, makes an extremely fast, long, lunging strike with their melee weapon (fists if they have a ranged weapon equipped), dealing extra damage. No damage if player misses.
*Breath steal--Single target. Drains target's MP.
*Storm swell--Area of effect. A strong wind blows across the area, reducing opponents' combat effectiveness somewhat. Any non-wind elemental damage spell cast from within the target area adds damage of that element to the spell for it's duration.
*Tempest fury--Character effect. Ultimate wind damage spell. The character summons a huge (not very wide, but quite tall) tornado around themselves, which suspends them in its center. The character can move normally (probably a little slower), and deals heavy damage to any opponent they touch.

Time: This might ruffle a few feathers, but I don't think chronomancers should have any direct damage spells. At all. They should be exceptionally powerful at controlling battle, and be highly capable of making their opponents unable to fight back, but their spells should be entirely manipulatory, rather than combatative, in nature. I see time as interacting best with space, and not much with the others.
*Slow--Single target. You know what this does.
*Accelerate--Character effect. Opposite of slow.
*Theft of time--Single target. "Ages" the target, causing temporary stat reductions.
*Forseeing--Single target. Compares opponents' and characters' stats, displaying who would likely win in a fight (or saying "too close to know"). Acts similar to the "compare" command in a MUD.
*Time ripple--Area of effect. Opponents within target area move backwards, withdrawing when they mean to charge. Any space damage spell cast upon an opponent within the target area causes a wormhole (sucks the opponent in, and spits them back out a second later a little ways away; no damage is dealt, but they lose one piece of equipment).
*Chronos armor--Character effect. Ultimate spell. For the next five times the character is hit, the damage is immediately undone, and the attacker is stunned for a few seconds.

Fire: Pyromancers should definately focus on the direct damage. Lots of attack spells, and very little else, with the only exception being some shielding. Fire spells work well with light spells.

Water: Aquamancers are, as usual, the healers. Some degree of direct damage, and perhaps a few control spells, but focus on healing/regenerative spells. Water works well with dark spells.

Earth: Terramancers would probably concentrate on shielding, imbuing, and causing status effects. Not a whole lot of direct damage, but rather very powerful support magic. Earth spells are too grounded and dense to be enhanced by any other element.

Light: Luciamancers' focus is on direct damage and status effects, both causing and removing. People usually think of light as a healing element, but I can't think of a single RL example aside from laser eye surgery, whereas water aids in the healing of just about everything. Instead, it is light's power to blind, dazzle, startle, and so on, that should be concentrated on. Light can be enhanced by fire spells.

Dark: Obscuromancers are another group I would like to see have no direct damage spells. Rather, I would like to see a mix of control, status effect, and imbuing spells here. Darkness doesn't do you any harm on it's own, but it's power over the mind is incredible. Dark spells are enhance by water spells.

Space: I think chaomancers should have no spells at all that don't do damage to some level, often with other effects as well. To balance, though, some space spells should be double-edged swords, also dealing damage to the caster. Space is harsh, and any living thing in it dies quickly; this should be reflected. Space spells can be enhanced with time spells.

Well, that's what I have so far. I'll keep thinking up interesting spells, and you all let me know what you think.
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About latin

Post by Clef » 18 Feb 2005, 06:42

Element = latin name/greek Name

Fire = Ignus/Pyro
Water = Aqua/Hydro
Wind = Aero/Pnemo
Earth = Agro/Geo
Light = Lumini, Lumus/Photos
Darkness = Nekron,Umbra(shadow)/Eskuros
Time = Tempori/Same
Space = Chaos/Tele

just to help
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Post by Talaroc » 18 Feb 2005, 07:46

Depends on which specific word you're looking up, of course (eg, for earth, "soil" is different from "the world" is different from "rock" and so on).
Clef

About Elementals

Post by Clef » 18 Feb 2005, 07:59

I agree with most thing, but i think there must be 10 elements:

Water, Wind, Fire, Earth, Light, Darkness, Moon, Mana, Time and Spirit

ill only explain the "new" ones:
(->)Mana is the element of the life, Mana comes from life and flows from life. Plants are the representation of that because they put the flow of mana in the world. That?s why mana magic affects vegetal life directly. Opposes Moon.
(->)Moon is related to Void, Nothingness. Its powers can transform things, since it controls the existence and shape of then. To transform one thing to another you need Moon elemental. Like change the shape of a monster, transform life force into Magic force. Oposes Mana.
(->)Time: Time is what put the order in the things, it shows the difference between past, present and future. It can change the order of things and the flow of happenings. Some say that some parts of existence can stopped and shaped like a disk that distorts and damage things. Opposes Spirit.
(->)Spirit: All life beings have a inner conscience, a feeling about its existence and place on world, some are more aware of it, others are less. That?s the way that life expresses itself in the world, with the inner power of spirit, its timeless and Eternal. Spirit magic can uses that ancient force to destroy or create. It is, with Time, the Supreme Elements. Because Spirit is Timeless, these forces are opposites, one tries to control other since dawn o of existence.

So i added theyr color scheme:

Fire ? Red (Orange, Yellow)
Water ? Blue (Cyan, Green-Blue)
Earth ? Green (Brown)
Wind ? Yellow (Cyan, Purple)
Light ? White (Yellow, Cyan)
Dark ? Black (Purple, Magenta)
Moon ? Orange (Yellow)
Mana ? Green (White)
Time - Gray (Purple, Black)
Spirit ? Purple (White)

The color in parenthesis, should be used with first color to do the spells of that element and other fx.

I think is needed to explain about Suport magic like:

- Support Spell ? Gives Bonuses to spell target, healing abilites, defenses against, etc.

And at last a chart that shows elemntal-relationship


Image

yeah..thats all. :)
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Post by Kyokai » 18 Feb 2005, 08:38

Did you come up with chart all by yourself? It's impressive. (It would make a nice graphic, if you can give it a parchment background. Show it to Rotonen.)

I think we could suit the game better with these elements:
Fire <-> Water
Earth <-> Air
Light <-> Dark
Time <-> Moon/Space
Mana/Life

where mana has no opposition and is basically a neutral element.

My concern with spirit is that I'm not sure I see where it fits in in terms of magic. It may exist for asthetic (story) purposes, but it's not really an elemental force that could be channeled is it? Besides, we need one neutral element anyway, so it's probably best to have that be mana.

I'd like to hear some discussion from everyone else to know what you think about it. It would be nice if someone (Rotonen) explained to me the story group's final word on what Mana actually is for TMW.
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Post by Talaroc » 18 Feb 2005, 10:26

Hm...well, if the elements are to be altered, a couple of things:

First, I would suggest space over moon. The moon's metaphorical opposite is the sun, not time. Space and time are the two basic forces of the reality we live in, so it makes much more sense to have them grouped like that.

Secondly, "mana" isn't a good term for a school of magic. Mana is magic; or rather, it is a term for the basic energy of magic. Saying "mana magic" is basically equivalent to saying "magic power magic," no matter the storyline (can't redefine words, the players won't get it).

Since my descriptions can be a bit esoteric at times, I'll see if I can whip up a graphic like Clef's to show my thoughts on elemental relationships.
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