Music idea ...

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zick
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Music idea ...

Post by zick » 27 Feb 2008, 17:45

I was listening to some songs over at OCREMIX, when I heard a remix of something from SoM that gave me an idea. I know its been suggested before for 3D sound effects, like as you get close to a sound source it gets louder and as you move away from the source it gets softer. What about the same effect for BGM. This could really challenge the music authors but could really have a dramatic effect to the music and cause most users to not just turn of the music because its a boring loop. It would mean that music tempo and loop length (like say 100 seconds at 120 BPM) would have to be standardized and that you'd probably have to make music with a program like Fruity Loops as opposed to recording yourself in your studio so that you have more control over the final output.

Listen to this song, its what gave me the idea. Download for the full song:
http://www.ocremix.org/remix/OCR01116/

Notice the various instruments come in an and out, and that the drum beat style changes from a more normal sound to a techno-ish style. Each instrument could be a sound emitter and as you get close/far from it, the music will be effected. Like a town area on a map may have more tribal drum sound with maybe an additional instrument that is the sound of a crowd and as you venture outside the safety zone of the town, the drums may change to a more battle ready sound (or maybe start as just a shaker) and as you get into the areas of a map where the more powerful enemies are the drums/instrument sounds could become more aggressive. Guitars will start as acoustic in a town area, but as you venture deeper into a hunting zone can move to an electric guitar with distortion.

The sound system syncs the music loops with each other. It would keep a timer running that would be the loop length and whenever a new instrument comes into range, that loop is started at the current time so that it syncs with the other instruments.

Also 3D sound effects should follow the BPM guidelines so maybe a blacksmith in town hits his anvil in beat with the music.
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Dave
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Re: Music idea ...

Post by Dave » 28 Feb 2008, 03:02

When it's done right, 3D sound and music is great and I like the idea to synchronize all of the music. I think however, that sound effects should have a more random / humanized frequency. To me, synchronizing sound effects with music would be downright annoying. ..and depending on how the music sounded in your blacksmith example, his shop may very well end up sounding like a night club.
:P ("Welcome to Smithy's! Two drink minimum and Saturday is ladies night!")

That said, I would have to encourage that any musician working on something for the fantasy environment, attempt to capture a more ambient sound; percussion, drums, etc.. should probably be toned down to an extreme minimum. A lot of drums may sound alright in some places, especially in hostile situations, but using too many kicks and snare-hits can quickly drive people insane. I'm not trying to insult anyone's musical preference or talent, but a good portion of the Fruity Loops community tend to be hobbiest-musicians, who are capable of producing little more than annoying drumloops, with very little melody. I'm not saying that plenty of accomplished musicians don't use programs like Fruity Loops, simply that it often seems to be more conducive to a certain style of music; techno. I'd just like to avoid attracting too many of the ever-plentiful "web DJs".. ;)

I don't think your suggested feature would really discourage people to perform in a studio, using real instruments. Any musician who is confident and talented enough to perform a more conventional style of music, will probably be able to create something just as, if not more impressive, than something slapped together using a piece of software. Individuals who are capable should be trusted to have good sense of rhythm, not to mention the fact that most accomplished musicians own, or have access to, REAL tempo / BPM monitoring equipment.. which is exactly what programs like Fruity Loops have been designed to simulate.

As a matter of my own personal preference (which may not count for much on this matter ;) hehe) I'd strongly oppose the use of any songs sounding too much like techno / club music, created by (amateur) DJ So-and-so. If we wanted drumloops with pounding kicks and synths, I (and probably many other people here) could complete our entire game's musical score in a week or two. So while I fully support the idea to synchronize music and use 3D sound to control the fading between areas.. I am absolutely nonsupporting of blatantly synchronizing sound effects with music.

..but please, don't get me wrong.. the basic idea you've suggested is still very cool. I'm just trying to lay down a preemptive strike, against the possibility of any techno slipping its way in to the game's musical lineup. ..and on that matter, I do apologize for slipping slightly off-topic with my opinions. :oops:
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Re: Music idea ...

Post by zick » 28 Feb 2008, 06:31

I didn't mean make it techno, I'm a rocker! About Fruity Loops, I meant a midi sequencer where you had more control over how the notes sound as opposed to a "live" recording scenario. Also the ambient sounds syncing with music, I didn't intend for a night-club scenario. Actually if I were half a decent composer I would have made ambient sounds play on polyrhythmic notes (like play every 3 beats even though the time signature is 4/4) or act as syncopation (kinda like the little bells starting at around 1:53 in that song that I linked to) as opposed to playing on the downbeat and/or upbeat only

Code: Select all

Polyrhythm example:
4| - - O - - O - - O - - O - - O - - O - - O - - O
4| X - - - X - - - X - - - X - - - X - - - X - - -

Syncopation example:
4| - - O -O- - O - -O- O - -
4| X - - - X - - - X - - - X

Or even lay down ambient noises on a CLAVE beat to give it that afro-cuban feel:
4| O - -O- - O - O O - O - -O- - O - O O -
4| X - - - X - - - X - - - X - - - X - - - 



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Dave
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Re: Music idea ...

Post by Dave » 28 Feb 2008, 07:37

zick wrote:I didn't mean make it techno, I'm a rocker!
Whew. :D .. thanks for the clarification, I was pretty sure that I was over-analyzing. ;) At least the two of us are on the same page of using 3D sound, so here's hoping that the real decision makers in that area (the programmers) enjoy the idea as much as we do. 3D sound was actually one of the few really cool features that Graal had, during my time there. I think one of the best uses for it is footsteps. Being able to hear footsteps approaching is so boss. 8)
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Rotonen
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Re: Music idea ...

Post by Rotonen » 28 Feb 2008, 10:45

Rotonen wrote:My view on music:

1) We need a composer.
2) We need to have a theme composed for each area.
3) We need to have arrangements between themes made. (For smooth musical transition between areas.)
4) We need special (as in random) themes for special places.
5) We need transition arrangements for the surroundings of special places.
6) We need to record and produce the music that will end up in the game. (The actual bands/music do not come into play before this. Before this it can be raw and ugly midi and mockups.)

So far no composer has been enthusiastic enough about actually starting to work. Some work has been done every now and then, but people have just mysteriously vanished. A concentrated group effort would really start to drive this forward. First we'd need to have a proper and defined world, though. A concentrated group effort would really drive this one forward too.

About bands: I've been warming up our university bands (we have one great big band for example) to the idea of possibly recording game music in the future and they've been more than enthusiastic. I doubt we'll get into this point until late 2007, though.
This has been quoted on the forums over and over again and I think it was originally posted around 2005 when we had a promising candidate to be our court composer.

In early 2008, I'm guessing late 2012 would be optimistic.

The orchestration part is not really necessary to consider at this point, but I'd like for the musical transition between areas to occur. At this point it mostly means we need a theme composed for each area and so far no one has started to take on the process. Random contributions are nice, but we need concentrated long term work here.
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zick
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Re: Music idea ...

Post by zick » 28 Feb 2008, 15:52

I'm just suggesting that the system be put in place, that's all. Or at least considered ...
Whether or not we get a full-time composer who will use the system to its fullest potential is really up to the composer. If I were a composer looking for a project, and there were 5 projects that just wanted music and one that wanted a bunch of loops of instruments that blended with each other to create a what I'm proposing ... I'd jump on board with the latter, especially if I'm not being paid. This is something that's going on my resume, and the cooler, more unique that it is, the better ...
IMHO.
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Rotonen
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Re: Music idea ...

Post by Rotonen » 29 Feb 2008, 18:51

I'm happy with semi-infinitely combinable loops as our basic building blocks.

So yes, you're more than welcome to join our efforts.

What do the tech devs think about combining loops on the fly (dynamically, based on the situation) with the client?
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