Fixing the economy in the medium term

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fate
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Fixing the economy in the medium term

Post by fate »

With the attack epxloit fixed, the question of what to do about experience and levels has arisen (covered by one discussion thread). Meanwhile, there is the question of what to do about the massive inflation in the short term: complete wiping (discussed in one thread) or moderate alternatives (discussed in another thread). Both of the latter threads also point to the need for medium-term perspectives for the economy, such as money sinks.

Note that I have heard no-one speak out against money sinks yet, and I personally view them as an economic neccessity. However, whether to add such sinks-- and what sinks to add-- is a question that can be answered quite independently of the short-term question of whether to wipe (Platyna's proposed solution), to partially wipe (Crush's proposed solution), or not to wipe at all.

The purpose of this thread, then, is to give a home to discussions about viable medium-term economic solutions (which, as I mentioned above, appear to be largely agreed on as being neccessary), so that Sert and Platyna's threads can focus on the short-term matter of wiping.

Unless I have missed something, here are the medium-term solutions that have been proposed and advocated by Sert, Landon, Veracity, Steve and others (apologies to those whose names I missed):
  • Automatic taxation
  • Auctions
  • Raffles
  • `Locked quests': Only after a certain amount of money has been accumulated, the quest is unlocked
  • Special items/services that are very highly priced
Any other suggestions?
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Re: Fixing the economy in the medium term

Post by Crush »

I think we need a short-term money wipe to get the money out of the game which got introduced by the casino bug.

But nevertheless we need a money sink to fight the inflantion which happens because the current game lacks a money drain. There is more money that gets into the game by monster drops than money leaves the game through NPC stores.
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Re: Fixing the economy in the medium term

Post by fate »

Hi,

I didn't attach my own opinions on these five ideas, so please allow me to fix that:

Taxation: I don't like this one. People can bypass it by buying items, so you will also have to tax items. But what happens if someone can't pay the taxes? (Plus, who here really likes taxation? ;-)

Raffles, Auctions: These make sense to me. Very expensive items as status symbols seem to be popular, so why not exploit this (as long as the items don't topple the game balance)? The artists might even create special unique items for these events. However, some of the more utilitarian wealthy players may not want to participate in raffles/auctions if they can't get a game mechanical benefit out of them.

Locked Quests: The idea here is that it doesn't matter who donates, but everyone will benefit. This is inherently attractive to some kinds of players. Furthermore, since everyone wants to participate in the quest, there is some social pressure on those who have money to donate. Sounds like a worthwhile experiment to me.

Expensive special items/services: This isn't much different from raffles/auctions wrt whom it attracts, except that the items/services aren't unique or even meant to be rare. Thus, less wealth players may wish to take advantage of this eventually. Thus, this could be combined with the `locked quests' approach: Prices will go down after the first couple of uses or the first couple of weeks (or some combination thereof). People will thereby pay extra to be the first to use that feature. (Not sure how popular that would be).

Here is one idea that I (oddly enough) haven't seen mentioned, even though it seems to have been implemented in other MMORPGs:

Houses/apartments/castles for rent: Players will have to pay weekly upkeep or be kicked out, but can take advantage (a) of a `free bed' and (b) of a chest they can store items in. Thus there is practical benefit and status improvement involved. Programming-wise, the hardest part is storing items in the chest and how to give items back to the player if the player is kicked out (maybe they're auctioned off instead...?)

The nice part about this is that it is quite extensible: players might be able to invite others (unlock their doors for everyone to enter), build cellars for extra money (with PvP areas, conference rooms, safe display cabinets for their rare items), all of which can cost money and/or increase upkeep.

To make things more interesting, housing prices could automatically adapt to the market (price increase if 2/3 of the houses are taken, price drop if 1/2 are not taken or somesuch), requiring little GM intervention.
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Re: Fixing the economy in the medium term

Post by Crush »

Taxation and houses would require too much programming.

We need a regular money drain. Locked quests can only be one time events and we can not guarantee a steady flow of new content to make sure that we will have this drain constantly.
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Re: Fixing the economy in the medium term

Post by Superkoop »

My idea is to raise prices on special items from NPCs. Like, NPCs could sell different hats/armor that are different, and that cost a LOT of money. (800k and upwards) Something that would be really hard for most players to get. And since it would be really hard, it make players want to get them, and so money would then be drained from the game.
It's similar to Crush's idea of a tannery, I like that sort of money sink.
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Re: Fixing the economy in the medium term

Post by Crush »

The tannery was rather following the "unlockable" model.
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Re: Fixing the economy in the medium term

Post by Superkoop »

I know, but I think both are good ideas.
  • Lump sum of money to unlock a service.

    Item prices higher.
I worded it wrongly; because I think both should be implemented. (and I know the ideas are different, but I think they both will work. Unlockable is good in the short term, and higher item prices will be better for long term.)

[[I also want to say thank you Crush for standing up for us little players, we appreciate it.]]
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Re: Fixing the economy in the medium term

Post by Snitap »

Is it possible to create a bank system? Like this: all players would be able to carry certain amount of money (like 100k) and if they have more than that they would have to deposite it. And then someway money could be removed directly from bank.
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Re: Fixing the economy in the medium term

Post by tarax »

Another solution I have seen implemented is a special bank before the wipe.
Character can deposit money and items.
After wipe, you can pay a 10% fee on the value to release items from the bank.
If a character got the money/items rightfully the first time, they can EASILY earn them back.
If a person used a bug, they will not be able to get them back.
If a person was using multiple characters to hide money, it will be harder to get it back....
Many advantages to this system, and no loosers that we ever saw, other than the cheaters...
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Re: Fixing the economy in the medium term

Post by Matt »

tarax wrote:Another solution I have seen implemented is a special bank before the wipe.
Character can deposit money and items.
After wipe, you can pay a 10% fee on the value to release items from the bank.
If a character got the money/items rightfully the first time, they can EASILY earn them back.
If a person used a bug, they will not be able to get them back.
If a person was using multiple characters to hide money, it will be harder to get it back....
Many advantages to this system, and no loosers that we ever saw, other than the cheaters...
And how do you decide whether the person used a bug?
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Re: Fixing the economy in the medium term

Post by Black Don »

Well right now when you die and respawn there is no punishment to that. Could we not turn that in to a money drain. Of course I know that people will start hold there money in second chrs so that they don't loose it so the only way around that is if the GP adds to the weight of our chr and not just items. So that you could only hold a little bit on a low lvl chr and as you add str you can hold more. I know its an imperfect half though right now with a lot of flaws but I hope this thread will help build on or come up with much better :)
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Re: Fixing the economy in the medium term

Post by Sanga »

How about the idea of "temporary items". For instance, you go to an NPC and "rent" a set of Gold Plate. You run around and do whatever. When you log off, that armor disappears from your inventory, and you have to rent it again the next time you log in.

Give the item a good plus, such as +30 def vs. the +25 for Light Plate, and if the rental fee was set correctly players would jump at the opportunity. The "correct" price for the rental is something that would have to be worked out.

Of course, for the "rich" players, you could have tux rental and such...

Yes, this would require some coding, for the automatic item removal, plus the items would have to be made non-droppable and non-tradeable (otherwise a rented item could simply be passed from player to player practically forever). There may be some advantage in having non-droppable/non-tradeable items anyway - such are used in other MMORPG games for quest-related items.

I would be willing to code this idea, if someone could point me to where I could download the eAthena version that's currently in use (and possibly some info on getting a local server running for testing - I've tried with the latest eAthena, but it fails miserably, though I suspect it's because the "server-data" from SVN isn't compatible with the newer versions).

All of the ideas I've seen for money sinks involve large-scale money sinks. I think the game would be better off with smaller scale (but commonly used) money sinks such as this. Of course, this *is* for the medium to long term. It's not intended to solve the inflation that resulted from the casino bug abuse, but rather to prevent the slower inflation that resulted from the lack of outflow paths for GP.
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Re: Fixing the economy in the medium term

Post by Black Don »

I like this idea you could have the rental expire after a certain amount of time. How long you have it rented for could be proportional to how much you pay. :)
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Re: Fixing the economy in the medium term

Post by Len »

In the long term a crafting system would help :mrgreen:
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Re: Fixing the economy in the medium term

Post by 5t3v3 »

Some other thoughts:
Toll booths
put a toll both at the edge of a map, and an NPC that warps you to a place of interest for nominal fee (like the guy that takes you to the arena for 50gp).

Death penalty
If there's a death penalty, people would avoid dieing. They would do so by eating up health items, which cost money.

Safety deposit rents
I'm sure that many have already considered the possibility of having a deposit system in the future that holds your items so you don't overpack. asking a rent for it is another way to get rid of constantly generated money.

Repairing items
Once a player has bought all of the maximum equipment, theres no longer a high demand for money. That can be solved if used equipment would get wear and tear that needs fixing.
if items have normal wear and tear

As for teh super prices. That wouldn't really solve the problem. In fact if the idea of fixing the economy is to fill the gap between old and new players, superprices would only do the opposite. Old rich players could easily afford the items but don't need them anymore and new players can't afford them.
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