Hybrid Combat

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Kyokai
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Hybrid Combat

Post by Kyokai » 12 Mar 2005, 02:38

How do you all feel about a system that incorporates elements of both our propsed combat styles?

This is a summary of the new combat system hybrid I devised to try and make everyone happy. As you can see, it allows players to directly engage the monster, skirmish, or stand off in the distance and zap monsters. Whatever style you like to play, TMW allows you to fight your way through a flawless synthesis of both direct engagement and skirmishing.

Image


I designed this system with 3 principles in mind:
Immersive - It keeps the player directly involved in the fight at all times
Tactical - the way you choose to arrange and fight strategically directly helps determine your victory.
Decision Based - It is the choices you make in battle, rather than your skill in movement that decides the outcome of a fight.
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another way

Post by Bear » 12 Mar 2005, 03:12

Id like to propose another fighting style, similar to yours but just a little different for Bows and Magic.

Bows, would have a settable distance of attack, the farther you set the distance of the arrow, the weaker the damage is to a far distance enemy, On the other hand, if u do far ranged to a closer enemy, it deals more damage.

Magic, magic would have a set area to cast, like... say were using the squares of walking, thunder bolt would take one tile space, anything on the tilespace selected by moving the arrow keys will be zapped to death.

and for Area of Effect skills, they will also have a set Tile limit, say 3x3 tiles, the skill would damage everything in the keyboard selected 3x3 tile space.

But i strongly suggest that u keep that direct attack that you demonstrated above.
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Post by WakkaCraft » 12 Mar 2005, 03:13

hmm, interesting. I'm open to discussing the aesthetics of this system, I see plenty of good possibilites in it.

I disagree with making all magic area of effect though.
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I may be the first to feedback :)

Post by oiper » 12 Mar 2005, 03:47

Well, I have to say, I'm impressed. This is very well explained and illustrated. I know there has been a lot of pushing, pulling and talk on this decision, so I'll try to be brief. Here's my views on it:

1. The suggested hybrid combat system is well thought out and, at least to me, seems perfectly feasible. It can probably be done without a whole lot of trouble, but I'll leave that up to all the devs. The system could be made fair in regards to wins/losses and it gives the game a whole new feel, namely "Immersive", as said.

2. I'm personally for a totally indirect (skirmish) gameplay environment. This is biased since I have, in the past, spent so many many hours playing The Secret of Mana. I loved that game to death. Whenever someone asks what I liked about it, I said 2 things: the story line and the fighting style. I've played the mess outta FF3 and can really appreciate the story and game regardless of the fighting style, but my favorite stands as SoM. I would find the previous comments as worth no more than a personal vote, but then there's the project's first page that initially grabbed my attention, quote: "The Mana World" is a try to create a free MMORPG in the style of "Secret of Mana" and "Ragnarok Online", completely customizable by the players by providing new ideas (especially from the fans of games like these above).". That's the hook for me, I've been waiting to see something stem from SoM that would be true to it's original feel and ideas. I'm very happy with the idea of an indirect fighting system and feel there is no need for anything else. I'd be sad to see the game lose it's original direction.

3. I understand that other people are involved and have completely different desires, which should matter, especially the devs :wink: Their suggestions and opinions must to be taken into account. At the same time, I find myself thinking about the hybrid. To compromise, could not the system adjust so that the people that want the original idea of the game, be protected from the possible changes?

For instance, locking into a fight could be a mutual setting for the players. On the other hand, a single setting for a player and a monster. This would mean that any persons that wanted to participate in the "locking" fighting system would have that option set, if both engaging parties do not, then skirmish fighting takes place. In battle with a monster, this is determined by the single player's setting only. Then in battle, ... see comic above. According to kyokai, the hybrid system wouldn't be that hard (again, I'm leaving that to the devs to figure out), and if it's not, then certainly the idea I've brought up here would be just as easy to implement.

I personally oppose the hybrid system and would be sad to have an aggressive direct fighting system. On the other hand, many points must be considered and if such a system was put in place, I believe that I could be just as happy with a passive hybrid fighting system; one that remaines relatively transparent to my experience as long as I don't option for it.

Hope I'm not stepping on any toes here, just voicing my thoughts. :roll: :D
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Post by Talaroc » 12 Mar 2005, 06:06

I'm a little confused by it, but bascially, my criteria are two: that the style of combat not produce more lag than necessary, and that it allow for a wide range of combat strategies (tank, skirmisher, mage, buffer, ranged combat, etc). Any system that fulfills those two criteria, I will back.
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Post by WakkaCraft » 12 Mar 2005, 06:23

One thing I'd say is that running shouldn't be an issue for players, and that magic users should not be the prime target for monster AI (i.e. the monster kept attempting to break away the whole time it was being fought to get another shot at the mage.)
Unique AI for different monsters would be good, so there could be a monster out there with that kind of hatred for mages, but it shouldn't be all of them.
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RE

Post by Bear » 12 Mar 2005, 06:27

For support skills, like heal and skills that up status, theyl be select character but for offensive, they damage anything on the square other than Players

Never intended to make all skills Area of Effect, just the ones that will be.
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Post by Bjørn » 12 Mar 2005, 09:52

Everything I see happening in this comic I see perfectly possible with the idea I presented in previous comic, with no need for direct control over the character. Probably except for the locked in combat idea, which I don't think I like.

I will now reiterate, in my opinion the differences in control make this system harder to implement and more expensive on bandwidth, plus the direct control part would remain to be susceptable to lag.
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Post by ElvenProgrammer » 12 Mar 2005, 09:56

Yay waiting for the next episode of Kain & Rydiah. :twisted:
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Post by Kyokai » 12 Mar 2005, 19:56

Thanks for all your input on the comic and this hybrid system, everyone. I realized that we may have to strike a compromise after the close vote on the forums over combat style. This idea doesn't do everything, but it does most of it.

Anyhow, we're going to have direct movement outside combat. Indirect was fine back in the RO days, but now FFXI, WoW, City of Heroes, The Matrix Online, Maple Story, guild wars... well, everyone uses directly controlled movement outside combat, it's ridiculous to use an antiquated system like indirect movement as our default, and it's easy to synthesize indirect control client-side with a bit of AI work if people really want it, so we can surely do both.

Since we have direct movement, the real problem is how to transfer into indirect combat, and can I attack outside of indirect-style combat? The hybrid system offers a valid solution to both of these concerns, by allowing both styles of fighting.

So now, I'll take a minute to answer all of your queries:
Bear wrote:d like to propose another fighting style, similar to yours but just a little different for Bows and Magic.

Bows, would have a settable distance of attack, the farther you set the distance of the arrow, the weaker the damage is to a far distance enemy, On the other hand, if u do far ranged to a closer enemy, it deals more damage.

Magic, magic would have a set area to cast, like... say were using the squares of walking, thunder bolt would take one tile space, anything on the tilespace selected by moving the arrow keys will be zapped to death.

and for Area of Effect skills, they will also have a set Tile limit, say 3x3 tiles, the skill would damage everything in the keyboard selected 3x3 tile space.

But i strongly suggest that u keep that direct attack that you demonstrated above.
It does make sense to have bows target monsters and deal less damage from far away. As for magic, we can make both area and monster targeting methods.
oiper wrote:I personally oppose the hybrid system and would be sad to have an aggressive direct fighting system. On the other hand, many points must be considered and if such a system was put in place, I believe that I could be just as happy with a passive hybrid fighting system; one that remaines relatively transparent to my experience as long as I don't option for it.
True, if you play the kind of character that doesn't like to engage in that sort of melee fighting, you won't use it often. Of course, when a monster wants to get you into the melee, you have to make an attempt to get out based on your own skills.
Talaroc wrote:I'm a little confused by it, but bascially, my criteria are two: that the style of combat not produce more lag than necessary, and that it allow for a wide range of combat strategies (tank, skirmisher, mage, buffer, ranged combat, etc). Any system that fulfills those two criteria, I will back.
This system produces no more lag than the direct control walking, and fully supports ranged combat and skirmishing. Rest assured, it is the best of both worlds.
Wakkacraft wrote:One thing I'd say is that running shouldn't be an issue for players, and that magic users should not be the prime target for monster AI (i.e. the monster kept attempting to break away the whole time it was being fought to get another shot at the mage.)
Unique AI for different monsters would be good, so there could be a monster out there with that kind of hatred for mages, but it shouldn't be all of them.
In the comic above, I assumed that the monster would target whichever player had dealt it the most damage so far, but of course, this is a monster AI issue, and we will be able to script many kinds of attack patterns.
Bjørn wrote:Everything I see happening in this comic I see perfectly possible with the idea I presented in previous comic, with no need for direct control over the character. Probably except for the locked in combat idea, which I don't think I like.

I will now reiterate, in my opinion the differences in control make this system harder to implement and more expensive on bandwidth, plus the direct control part would remain to be susceptable to lag.
The real difference between this comic and the one you proposed is not what happens in the combat, but what happens before it. This hybrid system allows several things the other doesn't:
* 1. A valid transition from the direct control walking into the queued combat style.
* 2. An alternative for players who don't like that queued melee combat style.
Perhaps "locked" is a bad word. It really just means that the two parties are targeting each other exclusively. There will be more rules about getting away from a melee later, of course, this is just here to illustrate the transition concept.
ElvenProgrammer wrote:Yay waiting for the next episode of Kain & Rydiah. :twisted:

Your enthusiasm is encouraging. I'll try to write a few more comics later to detail the other aspects of this system, which include:
* 1. Engagements with multiple parties on each end, and how to switch between targets in a multiple engagement.
* 2. Extended explanation of how to get away from an undesirable engagement.
* 3. Fundamental differences in skill use and combat style while in the two modes. Some skills only work while engaged, others while skirmishing. Thus giving the player a serious consideration in the type of fighting he will use, and a reason to alternate between two styles.
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So what does the systems coordinator actually do? My job is to take your ideas for TMW and build them into working aspects of gameplay that can be implemented by the artists and programmers. If there's anything you think we can do better or differently, let me know.
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Post by Kyokai » 15 Mar 2005, 16:57

Ok, this is the next episode of Hybrid Combat. I've taken out the part whereby monsters can lock on to characters, and come up with this general synopsis of the 3 main types of fighting style, what they lacked in old systems, how they work in the new system, and how they accomplish it in the new system. I've also detailed a few aspects of specialization in each system, in the last panel of the comic, though these are just projections, and are easily able to change.

(by the way, this comic is read top to bottom, left to right, in that order.
1 4 7 etc.
2 5 8
3 6 9

Image

Any thoughts about this?
The Mana World System Coordinator.
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So what does the systems coordinator actually do? My job is to take your ideas for TMW and build them into working aspects of gameplay that can be implemented by the artists and programmers. If there's anything you think we can do better or differently, let me know.
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combat

Post by oiper » 15 Mar 2005, 17:24

Donde 1337 5P34K?

I think I like this revision. :wink:

Just to make sure I'm understanding something though, here's my question:

When waltzing across TMW, am I going to be able to run by a little AI monster, smack him once just for kicks, and keep on walking without fighting it? I guess when it comes down to it, that's all I care about. Think, *not* the Dragon Warrior.

:?:
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Re: combat

Post by Kyokai » 15 Mar 2005, 17:56

oiper wrote:Donde 1337 5P34K?

I think I like this revision. :wink:

Just to make sure I'm understanding something though, here's my question:

When waltzing across TMW, am I going to be able to run by a little AI monster, smack him once just for kicks, and keep on walking without fighting it? I guess when it comes down to it, that's all I care about. Think, *not* the Dragon Warrior.

:?:
First off, I'm glad you like this style. Thanks for your support.

As for your question, that really depends on the AI of the monster you are fighting against. The system really only details that you can attack it without targeting it specifically, not what it will do in response to that attack. What would you suggest as a solution, or is this really a problem at all? Mob trains are bad, but it's also bad when you can't run away from a monster. Probably somethign we'll give thought too later on.
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Post by Bjørn » 15 Mar 2005, 18:07

Really I don't see how we can implement this without making a complete mess out of it, especially when you'd imagine these different styles being used against eachother. I really don't get why Kain can still lock the pig, while at the same time Edge and Rydiah are safe from any lock. What if Kain would fight Edge?

Why would the enemy lock of a spell only last one attack? In the majority of cases I guess you'd want to keep attacking one enemy until it's dead. So anyway the target could stay until the player tells otherwise.

On a last note, Edge seems to be still using the direct type of combat that I decided not to have at all.
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Post by Kyokai » 15 Mar 2005, 18:30

Bjørn wrote:Really I don't see how we can implement this without making a complete mess out of it, especially when you'd imagine these different styles being used against eachother. I really don't get why Kain can still lock the pig, while at the same time Edge and Rydiah are safe from any lock. What if Kain would fight Edge?
A: Kain locks on to the pig, yet the pig does not lock on to Kain. I removed the monster lock on, since it seemed that a lot of people didn't like that idea. If Kain fought Edge, Kain would be locked on, while Edge would be able to move freely while fighting. There would obviously be some AI movement on Kain's part in order to make this work.
Bjørn wrote:Why would the enemy lock of a spell only last one attack? In the majority of cases I guess you'd want to keep attacking one enemy until it's dead. So anyway the target could stay until the player tells otherwise.
A: A Perisitent lock prevents the player from easily casting a variety of spell types (ie: support, area of effect, offensive) which all target various types of player/monster. For this reason, it is easier to let the spellcaster manually target each time, and just have cursor memory on the last targeted monster/player. So that way, if he wishes to hit the same monster, he just has to confirm twice, and if we wishes to hit another one, he can do that too.
Bjørn wrote:On a last note, Edge seems to be still using the direct type of combat that I decided not to have at all.
A: You seem to have decided on something that we decided that no one would decide on by themselves. Yes, Edge uses direct combat, because some people like it. That's the spirit of compromise that I tried to build into this system.

You can choose to fight direct or indirect, based on how you like to play. It's not necessary to have two styles, but the different dimensions of fighting add alot to playability.
The Mana World System Coordinator.
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So what does the systems coordinator actually do? My job is to take your ideas for TMW and build them into working aspects of gameplay that can be implemented by the artists and programmers. If there's anything you think we can do better or differently, let me know.
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