Ranger hat flap under armor from back view.

Content and general development discussion, including maps, quests, and server code from the development team.
Booty
Peon
Peon
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:03 pm

Ranger hat flap under armor from back view.

Post by Booty » Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:11 am

In case you guys aren't aware (but probably are)

Ranger hat flap under armor from back view.

When wearing light plate and the ranger hat the flap appears under the armor when facing north.

It seems that the chest armor is overlayed on top of the helmet armor. I can't think of any reason to do this except in cases of really extravagant chest armor. or wait possibly robes would need this (although hoods could be equipped separately).

The point is there seems to be a conflict in the overlaying of armor which might cause more problems with future designs. A possible solution is to make the armor multi layered.

This way new armor like black don's horned mask could have the horn's visible from the back
User avatar
Jaxad0127
TMW Adviser
TMW Adviser
Posts: 4209
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:35 pm
Location: Internet

Re: Ranger hat flap under armor from back view.

Post by Jaxad0127 » Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:25 am

Actually, there is no problem. The ranger hat has nothing there. Hats are always drawn above armor (the only thing currently drawn above hats are weapons). More advanced layering would be nice.

EDIT: After further study, the ranger hat has a row of light pixels below the brow of the hat and between the flaps. Are they supposed to be there?

EDIT 2: Nevermind previous edit. They do look odd to me.
Image
User avatar
Black Don
Warrior
Warrior
Posts: 660
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:30 pm

Re: Ranger hat flap under armor from back view.

Post by Black Don » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:47 pm

Booty wrote: This way new armor like black don's horned mask could have the horn's visible from the back
the reason the horns don't show from behind is because of the hair layer. If I make them fit the bald head then when you add hair it look like the horns are growing from the top of the head and not out from the mask in front. The hight of the hair cuts are not universal so the only way I could ever see this done is if we used 2 layers for hair, one above and one below the hair layers. Then doing hats that have a back hanging behind the head would be possible too, with out having to completely cover the hair, like the ranger hats leather cap.
"Too much of a good thing is an awesome thing, but too much of an awesome thing is, um, really really dumb. And bad." Strong Bad
Booty
Peon
Peon
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:03 pm

Re: Ranger hat flap under armor from back view.

Post by Booty » Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:52 pm

jaxad0127 wrote:Actually, there is no problem. The ranger hat has nothing there. Hats are always drawn above armor (the only thing currently drawn above hats are weapons). More advanced layering would be nice.

EDIT: After further study, the ranger hat has a row of light pixels below the brow of the hat and between the flaps. Are they supposed to be there?

EDIT 2: Nevermind previous edit. They do look odd to me.
I might have jumped the gun on this one. Bare chested the ranger hat looks the same. I guess I was expecting the flap to go all the way around like a desert hat.
Black Don wrote: the reason the horns don't show from behind is because of the hair layer. If I make them fit the bald head then when you add hair it look like the horns are growing from the top of the head and not out from the mask in front. The hight of the hair cuts are not universal so the only way I could ever see this done is if we used 2 layers for hair, one above and one below the hair layers. Then doing hats that have a back hanging behind the head would be possible too, with out having to completely cover the hair, like the ranger hats leather cap.
I'm assuming that you meant 2 layers for the head armor not the hair (though I suppose it could work either way but would be more difficult splitting hair). That is what I was thinking. It allows the artist a little more freedom in how they place the elements in the designs.

If hair could be split into two parts that would be good too. One part being just being the stuff overlayed inside the outline of the head and below the neck (lets call it inside hair) and the other part being the stuff that is beyond the outline of the head (lets call it outside hair) (think mohawks). The outside hair could be turned on or off depending on the helmet. This would help prevent hair sticking through helmets and hats while still looking natural.

So if a character is facing north the layers would look like this with the first being the bottommost.

front of headgear -> inside hair -> outside hair-> back of head gear (I suppose the order of the hair doesn't matter)

So with a fancy hat and a mohawk the outside hair would be invisible and there would not be a need for the front of the headgear. With the Black Dons masks (I'm not suggesting you do this or do it in the future just using this as an example) The horns are the first layer then both layers of hair then the strap.

If the multilayer system was implemented I would be imagining giant witch doctor masks and halos
User avatar
Crush
TMW Adviser
TMW Adviser
Posts: 8046
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:08 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Ranger hat flap under armor from back view.

Post by Crush » Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:00 pm

I am afraid that a lot of artists or potential new artists might be intimidated by such a complicated system.
  • former Manasource Programmer
  • former TMW Pixel artist
  • NOT a game master

Please do not send me any inquiries regarding player accounts on TMW.


You might have heard a certain rumor about me. This rumor is completely false. You might also have heard the other rumor about me. This rumor is 100% accurate.
Booty
Peon
Peon
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:03 pm

Re: Ranger hat flap under armor from back view.

Post by Booty » Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:19 pm

Really? It would seem that you would draw it the same way but just separate the layers afterwards. But it is just an idea, I'm not attached to it.
User avatar
Jaxad0127
TMW Adviser
TMW Adviser
Posts: 4209
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:35 pm
Location: Internet

Re: Ranger hat flap under armor from back view.

Post by Jaxad0127 » Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:00 am

Just allowing headgear to have two sprites would be enough. A top one (always draw above the hair) and a bottom one (always drawn below the hair).
Image
User avatar
Black Don
Warrior
Warrior
Posts: 660
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:30 pm

Re: Ranger hat flap under armor from back view.

Post by Black Don » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:51 pm

Crush wrote:I am afraid that a lot of artists or potential new artists might be intimidated by such a complicated system.
I was suggesting 2 layers for head armor (and possibly chest armor too).
Well the one layer could be used still for simple hats but then as people grow in their skills and get more comfortable with what they are doing having the 2 layers for hats and capes would solve a lot of problems for some armor ideas. I know It did not take me long after learning to use layers in Gimp, and that doing an armor that used multiple layers would not be too much harder. Its just an idea to over come a lot of the layering issues that have stopped me from making a lot of cool armor ideas. I had played with a Dracula type opera cape but then when you have a long cape the comes down behind the leg armor it does not work because of layering issues, like Slaves cape on his armor. I don't see how handy capping the people you have now from making really dynamic armor for the sake of possibly scaring off others when they can still do the simpler thing to start any way.

edit:

From what I can tell the current layers look like this
top-bottom
weapon-hat-hair-chest-legs-player base sprite


I not sure what you had planed for tmwserv for armor layering or if yo had thought it out fully yet. or how you what to divide up the armor. (ie would gantlets be part of chest or gloves or would they be a different layer of the armor all together?)
With multiple layers for some armor would allow full length capes that could be added to any armor and more flexibility for gloves so they could go under or over the chest armor. I could easily see something like this in the future for the layering.

weapon-hat1-hair-hat2-cape1-gloves1-chest-gloves2-boots1-legs-boots2-cape2-player base sprites.
"Too much of a good thing is an awesome thing, but too much of an awesome thing is, um, really really dumb. And bad." Strong Bad
User avatar
Crush
TMW Adviser
TMW Adviser
Posts: 8046
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:08 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Ranger hat flap under armor from back view.

Post by Crush » Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:33 pm

The current drawing order is:

Code: Select all

            BASE_SPRITE,
            SHOE_SPRITE,
            BOTTOMCLOTHES_SPRITE,
            TOPCLOTHES_SPRITE,
            HAIR_SPRITE,
            HAT_SPRITE,
            WEAPON_SPRITE
  • former Manasource Programmer
  • former TMW Pixel artist
  • NOT a game master

Please do not send me any inquiries regarding player accounts on TMW.


You might have heard a certain rumor about me. This rumor is completely false. You might also have heard the other rumor about me. This rumor is 100% accurate.
User avatar
Sanga
Peon
Peon
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:57 pm

Re: Ranger hat flap under armor from back view.

Post by Sanga » Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:20 pm

Black Don wrote:
Crush wrote:I am afraid that a lot of artists or potential new artists might be intimidated by such a complicated system.
I was suggesting 2 layers for head armor (and possibly chest armor too).
Well the one layer could be used still for simple hats but then as people grow in their skills and get more comfortable with what they are doing having the 2 layers for hats and capes would solve a lot of problems for some armor ideas. I know It did not take me long after learning to use layers in Gimp, and that doing an armor that used multiple layers would not be too much harder. Its just an idea to over come a lot of the layering issues that have stopped me from making a lot of cool armor ideas. I had played with a Dracula type opera cape but then when you have a long cape the comes down behind the leg armor it does not work because of layering issues, like Slaves cape on his armor. I don't see how handy capping the people you have now from making really dynamic armor for the sake of possibly scaring off others when they can still do the simpler thing to start any way.

edit:

From what I can tell the current layers look like this
top-bottom
weapon-hat-hair-chest-legs-player base sprite


I not sure what you had planed for tmwserv for armor layering or if yo had thought it out fully yet. or how you what to divide up the armor. (ie would gantlets be part of chest or gloves or would they be a different layer of the armor all together?)
With multiple layers for some armor would allow full length capes that could be added to any armor and more flexibility for gloves so they could go under or over the chest armor. I could easily see something like this in the future for the layering.

weapon-hat1-hair-hat2-cape1-gloves1-chest-gloves2-boots1-legs-boots2-cape2-player base sprites.
The actual priorities are: Shield, Weapon, Hat, Hair, Torso, Pants, Shoes, Base Sprite
(for the SVN eAthena client - for older eAthena clients/TMWserv clients, the list provided by Crush is correct).

(Note that shields are available, with an SVN eAthena client, but at present there simply aren't any spritesheets for them).

(Shoes are *not* currently usable with the eAthena client - they appear to have been an afterthought on the part of the eAthena devs, and information on them isn't supplied by all of the "change looks" packets that the eAthena server can send).

An idea that I'd like to throw out - what about having the priorities variable, based on the direction that the character is facing? I don't think this would be too difficult to code, and it would greatly simplify things like capes (the cape would have a high priority when the character was facing away, but a low priority when the character is facing towards you). Then the artists would only have to accommodate the base sprite - issues regarding other equipment would be sorted out at run-time based on the direction and its associated priorities.

(I think this will require splitting boots and gloves into left/right spritesheets, as when facing one direction a left glove would need a higher priority than torso armor/pants, but while facing the other way it would need a lower priority than torso/pants).

Note that this does not even attempt to resolve the hair/headgear issues, like the "mohawk sticking through the helmet" weirdness. I don't see a solution for that one short of the two-part hair already suggested.
User avatar
Black Don
Warrior
Warrior
Posts: 660
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:30 pm

Re: Ranger hat flap under armor from back view.

Post by Black Don » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:07 pm

Sanga wrote:
The actual priorities are: Shield, Weapon, Hat, Hair, Torso, Pants, Shoes, Base Sprite
(for the SVN eAthena client - for older eAthena clients/TMWserv clients, the list provided by Crush is correct).

(Note that shields are available, with an SVN eAthena client, but at present there simply aren't any spritesheets for them).
I forgot about the shield. But they are a good reason why we need more then one layer. If Pauan's slash attack is used for the sword attack and the shield is equipped like in his example, when the shield passes behind the body you will come across tons of layering issues. If the shield had 2 layers you could work around it like this. Sheild1 layer sits in front of all armor for when you are blocking and walking bottom facing. When the shield swings behind the body you switch to layer shield2, that sits behind all the armor. You would also need layer shield2 for when you are walking top facing as well. You could make it so you could specify witch layer you want to use in the xml file.
Sanga wrote:
An idea that I'd like to throw out - what about having the priorities variable, based on the direction that the character is facing? I don't think this would be too difficult to code, and it would greatly simplify things like capes (the cape would have a high priority when the character was facing away, but a low priority when the character is facing towards you). Then the artists would only have to accommodate the base sprite - issues regarding other equipment would be sorted out at run-time based on the direction and its associated priorities.

(I think this will require splitting boots and gloves into left/right spritesheets, as when facing one direction a left glove would need a higher priority than torso armor/pants, but while facing the other way it would need a lower priority than torso/pants).
I think we have the same idea here. The only problem is that for some armor like the cape would have to sit on multiple layers. Let me explain why. Caps generally come around the neck and clasp together so to do this the cape would have to be on a layer above the chest armor. Then on the same basic forward facing view that you would see the clasp you would have to have to see the cape apear behind the legs and any armor it would have on so at the same time the cape is above the chest armor it would also have to appear behind the leg armor. The only way to do this is with 2 layers for a cape.

Sanga wrote:
Note that this does not even attempt to resolve the hair/headgear issues, like the "mohawk sticking through the helmet" weirdness. I don't see a solution for that one short of the two-part hair already suggested.
The hair sticking out of hats issue is different all together and the only way to fix it that I could see is what Crush has said in the past. Someone has to modify the hair so that there is a hat friendly version for all hair styles that can be switched to when you put the hat on.
"Too much of a good thing is an awesome thing, but too much of an awesome thing is, um, really really dumb. And bad." Strong Bad
User avatar
Sanga
Peon
Peon
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:57 pm

Re: Ranger hat flap under armor from back view.

Post by Sanga » Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:32 am

Black Don wrote:I think we have the same idea here. The only problem is that for some armor like the cape would have to sit on multiple layers. Let me explain why. Caps generally come around the neck and clasp together so to do this the cape would have to be on a layer above the chest armor. Then on the same basic forward facing view that you would see the clasp you would have to have to see the cape apear behind the legs and any armor it would have on so at the same time the cape is above the chest armor it would also have to appear behind the leg armor. The only way to do this is with 2 layers for a cape.
Yes, I understand what you mean. The cape would have to have two completely different layers, a "cape_front" and a "cape_rear". When viewed from the front, "cape_front" would need a priority to override the torso armor, but "cape_back" would be lowest-possible priority. When viewed from the back, "cape-front" would be blank, but "cape-rear" would have a high enough priority to override everything except hats and hair.
Black Don wrote:I forgot about the shield. But they are a good reason why we need more then one layer. If Pauan's slash attack is used for the sword attack and the shield is equipped like in his example, when the shield passes behind the body you will come across tons of layering issues. If the shield had 2 layers you could work around it like this. Sheild1 layer sits in front of all armor for when you are blocking and walking bottom facing. When the shield swings behind the body you switch to layer shield2, that sits behind all the armor. You would also need layer shield2 for when you are walking top facing as well. You could make it so you could specify witch layer you want to use in the xml file
So two layers there as well, call them "shield_outside" and "shield_inside". "shield_outside" would have a high priority, while "shield_inside" would have a very low priority, as it would only be visible if nothing was in the way.

Except that the "inside" of the shield would have to have some sort of straps or handgrips, which would need a priority high enough to show over that arm, but also low enough that the other arm would obscure them if it passed in front of them.

My head hurts.
User avatar
Black Don
Warrior
Warrior
Posts: 660
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:30 pm

Re: Ranger hat flap under armor from back view.

Post by Black Don » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:18 am

Sanga wrote:
Black Don wrote:I think we have the same idea here. The only problem is that for some armor like the cape would have to sit on multiple layers. Let me explain why. Caps generally come around the neck and clasp together so to do this the cape would have to be on a layer above the chest armor. Then on the same basic forward facing view that you would see the clasp you would have to have to see the cape apear behind the legs and any armor it would have on so at the same time the cape is above the chest armor it would also have to appear behind the leg armor. The only way to do this is with 2 layers for a cape.
Yes, I understand what you mean. The cape would have to have two completely different layers, a "cape_front" and a "cape_rear". When viewed from the front, "cape_front" would need a priority to override the torso armor, but "cape_back" would be lowest-possible priority. When viewed from the back, "cape-front" would be blank, but "cape-rear" would have a high enough priority to override everything except hats and hair.
Black Don wrote:I forgot about the shield. But they are a good reason why we need more then one layer. If Pauan's slash attack is used for the sword attack and the shield is equipped like in his example, when the shield passes behind the body you will come across tons of layering issues. If the shield had 2 layers you could work around it like this. Sheild1 layer sits in front of all armor for when you are blocking and walking bottom facing. When the shield swings behind the body you switch to layer shield2, that sits behind all the armor. You would also need layer shield2 for when you are walking top facing as well. You could make it so you could specify witch layer you want to use in the xml file
So two layers there as well, call them "shield_outside" and "shield_inside". "shield_outside" would have a high priority, while "shield_inside" would have a very low priority, as it would only be visible if nothing was in the way.

Except that the "inside" of the shield would have to have some sort of straps or handgrips, which would need a priority high enough to show over that arm, but also low enough that the other arm would obscure them if it passed in front of them.

My head hurts.
I'm not sure how you would implement your idea mine just works off of whats all ready working in game just that you would have to make more layers available for the armor and 2 sprite sheets for some armor so it works properly.

When I reread what your saying your saying the same thing I am just using different words. When I made my list of how I thought the layer could look I put quite a bit of thought into it and have reasons for all the double layers and in what situations they would be used. If you would like a compleat expiation of each layer then just ask.
"Too much of a good thing is an awesome thing, but too much of an awesome thing is, um, really really dumb. And bad." Strong Bad
User avatar
Sanga
Peon
Peon
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:57 pm

Re: Ranger hat flap under armor from back view.

Post by Sanga » Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:37 pm

Black Don wrote:When I reread what your saying your saying the same thing I am just using different words. When I made my list of how I thought the layer could look I put quite a bit of thought into it and have reasons for all the double layers and in what situations they would be used. If you would like a compleat expiation of each layer then just ask.
Yes, we *are* talking about similar ideas. The only difference is that I'm thinking along the lines of having the priorities (draw order) of the different "layers" vary, depending on the orientation of the character, as well as your idea of having extra "layers" to allow for different situations.

I was thinking of "layers" as separate spritesheets. For instance, "awesome-armor-front.png" and "awesome-armor-back.png". These will most likely be created at the same time, using the layers available in Gimp or whatever, and then later separated into separate files (note that I am *not* an artist in any way, shape, form, so I may be making false assumptions based on limited knowledge of the pixelling side of things). Then have "awesome-armor.xml" specify both of these spritesheets, and identify the "layer" (weapon, hat1, hair, etc) for that spritesheet.

Ideally, what I would like to see is a system where the artist does *not* have to allow for other equipment (or the base sprite) when creating a new item - if the priorities are set correctly, and there are enough layers to allow for all possibilities, then ideally the artist would just create the item, and let the graphics code in the client take care of determining which parts are visible and which are obscured by other items or the base sprite.

(Note that I'm not sure that this is actually possible, mind you. But I think it's a good target to shoot for).

This would actually be a fairly substantial change, as it would require changes to the graphics code (for the extra layers) as well as changes to the parameters available in the .xml files. But I think it would be a worthwhile change. For this to be practical, these changes would have to be backwards-compatible with all existing artwork and XML files, but I *think* this can be done. And having this backwards-compatibility would ease the learning curve for new artists - they could start creating items using the "basic" layers, and move up to using the "extended" layers when their skill and confidence have grown to the point that they're ready to use them.

I *would* like to see your list of layers, and their rationale.
User avatar
Black Don
Warrior
Warrior
Posts: 660
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:30 pm

Re: Ranger hat flap under armor from back view.

Post by Black Don » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:29 pm

Sanga wrote:
Yes, we *are* talking about similar ideas. The only difference is that I'm thinking along the lines of having the priorities (draw order) of the different "layers" vary, depending on the orientation of the character, as well as your idea of having extra "layers" to allow for different situations.

I was thinking of "layers" as separate spritesheets.
We are talking the same thing cause a separate layer is a separate sprite sheet. When you say "assigning priority" it the same when I say move the sprite to a lower layer does the same thing with out having to radically change the code, other then to allow for more layers (which you would have to do to make your idea work any way).
Sanga wrote: theIdeally, what I would like to see is a system where the artist does *not* have to allow for other equipment (or the base sprite) when creating a new item - if the priorities are set correctly, and there are enough layers to allow for all possibilities, then ideally the artist would just create the item, and let the graphics code in the client take care of determining which parts are visible and which are obscured by other items or the base sprite.

(Note that I'm not sure that this is actually possible, mind you. But I think it's a good target to shoot for).


I *would* like to see your list of layers, and their rationale.
Multiple layer would go a long way to doing that but there might still be some layering problems. I mean no system is perfect.

As for being backwards compatibility more layers means that the old layers are still there in the right spot but we would have more layers so that we could have more new armor options. But of course new armor would not work on the old layers system, but the whole point is that the old layer system does not allow for the creation of something like long capes.


now for the layers expiation and reasons.
Crush wrote:The current drawing order is:

Code: Select all

            BASE_SPRITE,
            SHOE_SPRITE,
            BOTTOMCLOTHES_SPRITE,
            TOPCLOTHES_SPRITE,
            HAIR_SPRITE,
            HAT_SPRITE,
            WEAPON_SPRITE
For my draw order I will avoid the terms back and front since they get confusing and are dependent on what direction you are facing. I will use the terms bottom (for the lower layers and top for higher layers). I have renamed Bottom and Top Clothes to Leg and Chest for clarity.

Base Sprite
Shield_Bottom_Sprite- would be used when the shield should be behind all a other layers, like when facing Up(North)
Weapon_Bottom_Sprite-For the same reasons as the shield. We could use this now even because if you look Closely at the bow attack up facing you see the top to the bow show up through the hats. I only noticed this when making the white cowboy hat because the top of the bow is so small I did not notice it until it was against some thing with a high contrast.
Shoe_Bottom_Sprite- would be used when shoe should not be seen above the pants armor, like long floor length Robes and dresses.
Cape_Bottom_Sprite- For the part of the cape that is seen behind legs and leg armor when facing down(south)
Leg_Clothes_Sprite- would stay unchanged for leg armor
Shoe_Top_Sprite- is for when you have a tall Boots on that come over pants legs, like a Cowboy Boot
Gloves_Bottom_Sprite- this could be optional but is for allowing gloves the option of hiding under th sleeves of shirts and other chest armors.
Chest_Clothes_Sprite- would stay unchanged for chest armor
Gloves_Top_Sprites- for gloves to go over top of shirt sleeves, like when the gloves have large cuffs or gauntlet style cuffs(Eskimo Fur mits are a good example). Could also be used for Bracelets and arm bands.
Cape_Top_Sprite- would be used for the cape in all views it appears over top of all other armor(side and up facing) down facing would only be for the part of cape that clasps around the neck. Could also be used for necklaces.
Hat_Bottom_Sprite-for the part of hats that should appear behind the head and hair
Hair_Sprite- remains unchanged
Hat_Top_Sprite-works the same as the current hat layer we have now
Weapon_Top_Sprite-for when you are facing side and front views
Shield_Top_Sprite-for when the shield should be in front of all other layers.

that is about as clear as I can make it.
"Too much of a good thing is an awesome thing, but too much of an awesome thing is, um, really really dumb. And bad." Strong Bad
Post Reply