Seasons,Weather,Events and Professions:Creating/selling item

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Seasons,Weather,Events and Professions:Creating/selling item

Post by Lecter » 26 Jun 2008, 15:36

I am currently starting to get a group of people o work on snow tile set, and snow maps.
One of the main problem I face is the absence of seasons.
This thing is very easy to code :
**Event: player exiting current map from the north
**Action: player enter new map ./mapdirectory/beta.map
Can become
**Event: player exiting current map from the north
**X := Randomize();
**if X =< fraction;
** then
** Action: player enter new map ./mapdirectory/betaSummer.map
**else
** Action: player enter new map ./mapdirectory/betaWinter.map

The same process can be implemented for weather, bu then its the same map, weather will simply add sand storm or snow storm or rain, and different clouds shadow patherns.
The same process can also be used for events and quests such as village is under attack by slimes!
This would be great for mapmakers wouldnt need to build map from scratch, but simply modifying the map a bit.

We could also implement wind effect that would push players a bit in one direction (always or from time to time or in a little zone) this could also be used as a spell.

The profession idea is bit harder to implement.
Players could apply to jobs that wouldnt be for play and explore, but jobs like blacksmith, players could then rent rooms in supermarket buildings, or houses, or clan based villages, to do their activities. The only way to enter the room would be if rented, or pay small fee each time or access depending to clan membership, this can be implemented like exiting a map but this time to perform this will require the right (having paid, having a pass) to do so, and it would simply put the player being the counter.
Another idea would be to player to have salers: npc that would add y gold to the player's set price and would wait with the items the player gave them for someone to come buy. This is best since there is few players online at a time. when bought event comes, player can receive his price x money and y(x) (the npc tax) would be burned in the game. This would encourge players to build/modify their own equipments, creating an infinite more quests, to acquire experience building equipment and to go gather the needed items via killing monsters or doing interractions with objects or minigames or reusable quests and bosses. Developpers would then add receipes, ading the profession skills acquiring via quests as they wish and as game stay balanced. Hunter shops selling various monsters drops or items you acquire via interaction with objects could be added.

Interaction with objects could be like lumber jacking on trees objects, (lumber jack being profession, each level adding the lumberjack basic skill upper, then you fix a % of success making a log depending of tree-object type and lumber jack job level). Not every trees need to be "lumberjackable", just some specials ones in places where monsters would come attack the poor guy trying to lumberjack it.
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Re: Seasons,Weather,Events and Professions:Creating/selling item

Post by Booty » 26 Jun 2008, 21:03

Lecter wrote:I am currently starting to get a group of people o work on snow tile set, and snow maps.
One of the main problem I face is the absence of seasons.
This thing is very easy to code :
**Event: player exiting current map from the north
**Action: player enter new map ./mapdirectory/beta.map
Can become
**Event: player exiting current map from the north
**X := Randomize();
**if X =< fraction;
** then
** Action: player enter new map ./mapdirectory/betaSummer.map
**else
** Action: player enter new map ./mapdirectory/betaWinter.map

If I'm understanding this right there can be multiple players on the same map experiencing different seasons?

The same process can be implemented for weather, bu then its the same map, weather will simply add sand storm or snow storm or rain, and different clouds shadow patherns.
The same process can also be used for events and quests such as village is under attack by slimes!
This would be great for mapmakers wouldnt need to build map from scratch, but simply modifying the map a bit.

We could also implement wind effect that would push players a bit in one direction (always or from time to time or in a little zone) this could also be used as a spell.

And if somebody didn't like the weather couldn't they just leave the map and reenter?

While I like the idea of weather and seasons maybe a climate cycle would be better if it was universal and preset (maybe loaded with updates)

The profession idea is bit harder to implement.
Players could apply to jobs that wouldnt be for play and explore, but jobs like blacksmith, players could then rent rooms in supermarket buildings, or houses, or clan based villages, to do their activities. The only way to enter the room would be if rented, or pay small fee each time or access depending to clan membership, this can be implemented like exiting a map but this time to perform this will require the right (having paid, having a pass) to do so, and it would simply put the player being the counter.

This is interesting, maybe like a clan lodge. The clan can pay great sums to keep it. A good sink, how easy for it to implement is the question.

Another idea would be to player to have salers: npc that would add y gold to the player's set price and would wait with the items the player gave them for someone to come buy. This is best since there is few players online at a time. when bought event comes, player can receive his price x money and y(x) (the npc tax) would be burned in the game. This would encourge players to build/modify their own equipments, creating an infinite more quests, to acquire experience building equipment and to go gather the needed items via killing monsters or doing interractions with objects or minigames or reusable quests and bosses. Developpers would then add receipes, ading the profession skills acquiring via quests as they wish and as game stay balanced. Hunter shops selling various monsters drops or items you acquire via interaction with objects could be added.

I'm kinda befuddled on this one (I think that's the word I'm looking for). My first look though this said "Free market" to me. A free market would be great where people can list items at a set price and when people come to buy they always get the lowest price offered. Not what you were saying I know, but I'm not sure what you are saying here.

Interaction with objects could be like lumber jacking on trees objects, (lumber jack being profession, each level adding the lumberjack basic skill upper, then you fix a % of success making a log depending of tree-object type and lumber jack job level). Not every trees need to be "lumberjackable", just some specials ones in places where monsters would come attack the poor guy trying to lumberjack it.

This seems kinda silly, who wants to be a lumberjack all the time. However monster specific experience seems like a reasonable idea. As you kill more of a certain monster you become better at killing it, and are able to reap more rewards for killing it.
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Re: Seasons,Weather,Events and Professions:Creating/selling item

Post by Arkyan » 26 Jun 2008, 22:01

I could see the weather idea being an aesthetic novelty added, but probably only after the new server is done. :P If a weather manager were coded in, I would say have it have a certain set of storms which could be changable each day at a daily update if the mods wanted, or just with each big update to coorespond to the number of maps so there isn't too much or too little weather effects roaming around. Each map could be pre-linked to overlays (a few maps, you can see clouds, which is done via and overlay image, or the sand south of Tulimshar). Then the weather manager creates a weather system of varying severity (the more severe, the rarer, of course) and determines the length the system will last. Once the manager sets all this (which would be practically instantaneous), it could randomly select a map to put it on, and activates all cooresponding weather effects for any clients in that area at the time and for any that enter for the duration of the weather system's life.

This could be expanded to allow the storm a chance to live at the end of it's life and change severity, or move to adjacent maps, but that'd be slightly more complicated (but not by much I don't think). It'd ensure everyone see's the same effect though. :)

NPCs to sell for you would be useful I think. But of course, you either need the items or the gold to operate them and list your buy and sell offers. :) Would give players both the option to do business outside of their normal play time, and also for players to have a wider array of items available to them at once. Would have to be carefully balanced with NPC prices, though.

Lumberjacking would probably suppliment mining or farming, and as a result, support a crafting system for said items. While a good idea, I wouldn't expect anything like that for a while longer.
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Re: Seasons,Weather,Events and Professions:Creating/selling item

Post by Lecter » 26 Jun 2008, 22:26

Excellent idea, the penalty here however is the time depending one, if player have to leave..., But itll make game more lively since things will happens and change overtime. But Im also thinking about weather changing the overallpaths of a map, this can also be implemented on server, since the map system work as an oriented graph, even if u cnat enter a map in summer at a time, ull still be able to exit it, of course the server will have to re-orient exit arrays of inactive maps to currently used maps wisely. meaning that a winter version of a map should have theits equivalent exits to its summer version re-oriented as well as the summer version, (if its summer to not only the map but also the adjacent maps, so a player still in a winter map would get into the summer maps as soon as he exit through an exit common to the 2 maps (pointing on the current version of the adjacent map.
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Re: Seasons,Weather,Events and Professions:Creating/selling item

Post by Crush » 28 Jun 2008, 16:24

The whole idea to have two separate maps for different seasons is broken by design. It is just illogical to have two clients on the same geographical location but they both have different seasons and can't interact with each other.

Weather effects without any effect on the gameplay? Sure, no problem. There is already a wiki article about that. But using different maps for the same location based on the time the player enters just doesn't work in an MMO context.
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Re: Seasons,Weather,Events and Professions:Creating/selling item

Post by Lecter » 28 Jun 2008, 16:26

Ok here is an example of how to set the pointers, to emulate seasons, I'm posting this here because it seems hard to describe.

Note that the server deal with a summer map and a winter map, and isnt just changing the maps, the maps are always loaded, the only thing to change is the pointers.
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Re: Seasons,Weather,Events and Professions:Creating/selling item

Post by Crush » 28 Jun 2008, 16:34

I understood how you want this to work. But it does still not make sense that player A and player B travel on the same path, change the map, and land on different maps because there was a season change between their map changes.

It also makes no sense that the season doesn't ever change for you when you keep staying on the same map while it constantly changes for other players who travel more actively.

And it doesn't make sense that you are on a map where no other player can reach you because the season changed and so they land on a different map when they try to get to you.
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Re: Seasons,Weather,Events and Professions:Creating/selling item

Post by Lecter » 28 Jun 2008, 16:53

they will not land in different maps, unless the 2nd one takes 20 secs to follow the first one,
at worst server can take all players remaining in a map and transport them an entry of the other map as a timed event linked to season change

Yes a player can stay indefinitely in the same map if he wants too, but then as soon as he exit that map, the season change applies, and yes other player wont find him for hes acting like a npc linked to the map he wont leave.

It also make sense when they cant reach you when ure more a npc than a player, unless there is an option telling where a player is, and season changing isnt something that happens every hour, perhaps season can change 1 time per day or week, whats the point of doing seasons if they last a minute.


Other way to do this would be by giving player the choice to go in the winter version area
or the summer one. But it would kill the fun of having time based events and areas in the game.
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Re: Seasons,Weather,Events and Professions:Creating/selling item

Post by feline monstrosity » 28 Jun 2008, 20:25

I suppose it's not possible for the map to actually change... you know, like it would just start snowing and the tiles would fade into the winter versions. I guess if it was possible/feasible it would have been suggested already.
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Re: Seasons,Weather,Events and Professions:Creating/selling item

Post by Jaxad0127 » 28 Jun 2008, 20:44

feline monstrosity wrote:I suppose it's not possible for the map to actually change... you know, like it would just start snowing and the tiles would fade into the winter versions. I guess if it was possible/feasible it would have been suggested already.
That has been discussed for day/night transitions.
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Re: Seasons,Weather,Events and Professions:Creating/selling item

Post by 5t3v3 » 29 Jun 2008, 00:40

Lecter wrote:they will not land in different maps, unless the 2nd one takes 20 secs to follow the first one,
at worst server can take all players remaining in a map and transport them an entry of the other map as a timed event linked to season change
Yes a player can stay indefinitely in the same map if he wants too, but then as soon as he exit that map, the season change applies, and yes other player wont find him for hes acting like a npc linked to the map he wont leave.
Well there shouldn't be an "unless" situation. I understand how your suggestion works, and indeed the number of conflicts can be driven to a minimum by certain tricks, but if you can't rule out every possibility of conflict, that's just not acceptable. It just doesn' t add up that two players can be on the same geographical location at the same time, yet be in a different map.
It also make sense when they cant reach you when ure more a npc than a player, unless there is an option telling where a player is, and season changing isnt something that happens every hour, perhaps season can change 1 time per day or week, whats the point of doing seasons if they last a minute.
The solution to the conflict is not blaming the gamer his behavior. If people want to stay at the same map, say for example for training they shouldn't get isolated.
Other way to do this would be by giving player the choice to go in the winter version area or the summer one. But it would kill the fun of having time based events and areas in the game.
That's an interesting variation, however IMO this would appear more like two different geographical places, and wouldn't give you the feel of actually being in the same place. Oh and it still doesn't take away the conflict that two players could be at the same geographical location yet at a different map.
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Re: Seasons,Weather,Events and Professions:Creating/selling item

Post by Lecter » 29 Jun 2008, 01:19

2 players can be in the same geographical location, but not in the same map, thats not only a conflict, thats an exploit, the game is going to get soooo much hacked, oh no help help!

It wont crash game, I think that this little conflict is little price to pay in exchange of being able to change maps seasons and stuff.

we're arguing on a useless ground, its not very hard to program, not very hard to handle, and the only penalty is to the user who doesnt leave the map, if the maps are small enought, players will change maps more often, so unless you make very big maps and change seasons every 10 minutes its not a problem.

As for players being "isolated" I hardly see how they get "isolated" for they only have to change map to get back into the current playing game, and the map where they stand is still being run so he doesnt crash or get bugged.

Ultimately if the fact than 2 users cannot be on the same geographical place but not the same map is sooo catastrophic for you, you can always keep in memory by where the player entered the map, and force him back to the corresponding entry of the other season's version of that map, then the unused maps could be immediately discarded which would save a little processor time, but would cut people from doing their current questing.

The thing is that its a nice feature that would be unique to manaworld, on the programmation level its not a catastrophy, it can add many map effects that would interact more with users and increase the livelyness of the World, not being static and time froze, in which u pass from a desert to a forest in a blink, and get from a forest into a snow area within a little girl's walk.

I suggest the idea should be tested before simply being discarted on the reason people would go crazy for they would have the power to be in the "same game place" at the same "reality time" but not at the same "game time", only for the "reality time" the user would leave the map, and the users still in a winter version wouldnt be able to show any user whos not in the map that he is still in another "game time period" during a "reality time", according that there isnt more than 70 people in average on a server and that seasons would change no more than 2 times a day.

The conflict result is minimal for the gameplay gain, this can be tested b4 being discarded.
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Re: Seasons,Weather,Events and Professions:Creating/selling item

Post by Crush » 29 Jun 2008, 01:33

Just because your way of doing seasonal changes has some flaws doesn't mean that the whole idea of seasonal changes is bad.

How about thinking about alternative ways to implement seasonal changes which don't cause any asynchronisation problems?
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Re: Seasons,Weather,Events and Professions:Creating/selling item

Post by Jaxad0127 » 29 Jun 2008, 01:41

The weather proposal on the wiki maybe adjustable to encompass seasons, along with changing tilesets on the client.

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Re: Seasons,Weather,Events and Professions:Creating/selling item

Post by Superkoop » 29 Jun 2008, 02:01

Rather than having extra maps and tilesets for different seasons/weather, how about just an overlay effect. The overlay could be separate from the .tmx so that the actual map wouldn't change, and maybe there could be a fading from one overlay effect to the next.
This type of effect works well for the sandstorm and clouds, amongst the other ones like spotlight and fog.
This would be good for weather effects, like like snow and rain as example. But, I don't think this would work for seasons. Since the seasons would actually need revised tilesets, (eg leafless trees, leaves on the ground, dead flowers, etc). So the weather system would for sure need to wait until we at least get more tilesets actually finished.

But I see no reason why a weather system couldn't be implemented sooner, with having the weather changing from sunny to cloudy, to partly cloudy, to raining. And if we wanted to get really complex, there could be an entire weather system that would generate itself to effect the whole world, like a storm wouldn't be just specific to one map, but it would be spread over multiple maps, and it would grow stronger and die over a spread amount of maps. So that the whole world would seem more like one big map, rather than multiple maps.
That could be getting a bit too ambitious though, but it would be neato. =)
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