Feedback - Experience Points

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ikms
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Feedback - Experience Points

Post by ikms » 16 Oct 2008, 01:50

I would like to see a change in the way experience points are gained and leveling up is achieved in TMW

My suggestion is based on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_point

Presently I am finding is extremely difficult to level up, and gain the necessary abilities I require to take on other elements in the game.
I have spoken with a number of players half way through the game who are also being turned off, by how hard it is to get to the next level.

As the leveling up in TMW is purely based on the number of monsters killed, and the Experience Points gained.
This seems to lead many players into the world of BOTS, who stand around simply killing monsters just for the experince points.

I would like to see it easier to gain levels in TMW particually after level 60, so that players are not turned off the game,
and into BOTS, or discouraged and leave the game entirely.

I think levels need to be achieved by task completion, to prevent "power leveling" described above.
Also the idea of "Remorting" into new areas of TMW appeals greatly, when certain levels are achieved.

This gives the game a whole new dimension beyond simple XP points.

Regards
ikms
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Jaxad0127
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Re: Feedback - Experience Points

Post by Jaxad0127 » 16 Oct 2008, 03:45

There are many quests already that give XP, and more are on their way.
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Ces
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Re: Feedback - Experience Points

Post by Ces » 16 Oct 2008, 07:22

Well, I think it’s rather good as it is now. I would actually suggest to make it a bit harder for lower levels to level up, at the moment you just has to play the game for a few hours, and whoosh, your character is decades of levels already (assuming you do not spend much time learning the game mechanics).

It is generally said that levelling should be easy enough that players enjoy themselves (by levelling up, that is) and stay in the game. To me, that holds true for the earlier and perhaps middle levels. But as soon as the higher levels are reached I think it should take quite a while for a power leveling character to reach their goal (highest level). And currently, no player has yet reached that far, in my eyes a success! ^__^

I believe I do not speak for the majority of players here, but keep levelling hard enough, and instead focus on making the levelling more interesting (and you just have to hear the devs, read the forum, wiki etc. to know that exactly that is being done, and one only has to relax and waiting for time to catch up to the wants of the community, or if that’s not fast enough, one can always give a helping fast, quickening time’s pace a bit).

(And, for reference, my highest level character is around level 50 or 60, ... cannot recall exactly. Oh, my, were did my youthful days go?)
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Re: Feedback - Experience Points

Post by kickinyourface » 16 Oct 2008, 10:53

jaxad0127 wrote:There are many quests already that give XP, and more are on their way.
i don't know what u mean with "many" i only know 1 and that is the quest where u need fur boots winter gloves & a bottle of water to enable it (i forgot the name of the npc)
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fate
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Re: Feedback - Experience Points

Post by fate » 16 Oct 2008, 18:12

Hi,

right now there are at least two quests in-game that award experience points, and several WIP quests that will award experience points once included

-- fate
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Re: Feedback - Experience Points

Post by ikms » 16 Oct 2008, 22:29

For reference my Character is Level 71 and doesnt look like getting to level 72.

(Based purely on the fact that it isnt possible to achieve in any realistic timeframe,
it takes 15 seconds to kill a Moubou and 45 Seconds to locate another on the map,
they yield 600XP points - So the maths is easy E.G. 1 minute of playing = 600XP.

Therefore to achieve the 1,594,050 XP points required at this time just to progress one level,
it would take 26567.5 minutes or 442.7917 hours or 55 days ( 8 hours) or "CONTINOUS" game play, lets say 2 months, allowing time for luch.
Even if I kill and locate in half the time it would take over a month to achieve 1 level, then there are only 27 levels or so above that,
progressively requiring more XP points to progress. (Years and Years of "CONTINUOS" playing required. Decades if you didnt play 8 hours a day continuosly)

With No Fast Attack bug, & No instant healing, the game play is now complety skewed.
I wonder how many of the really high level players would persist with the "decades" of non continuos play,
required to progress the game through levels 70-99's. Just to improve the character that are required now.

My suggestion is to take the focus away from Character Developement (Leveling Up) completely, dont make XP so much the focus.
let the players level up, improve their stats, lets them max them out, dont worry about Healing, etc quite so much.

Make TMW "Quest" focussed, "Task", and "Puzzle" focused. (See Azada - Big Fish Games),
keep the "Fun" in the game, lower the XP points required and make leveling up more task/quest/puzzle focused,
the Dark Green dye (higher or lower) puzzle is a very good start.

Also dont let the Archer be the only character that can achieve the higher levels, some players may prefer a swordsman (needs a shield),
or later even a wizard (Needs INT and MP's).

Feedback: - From a Novice who has enjoyed playing the game
Level 1-10 were great for a first timer, I seemed to have the world at my feet, even though I didnt know what to do with it
Level 11-20 were better as challenges appeared around every corner
Level 21-30 - I began to wonder if I had allocated by XP point correctly, but continued on with the task at hand
Level 31-40 - Started to get into the game, concentrating on completing the quests
Level 40-50 - Concentrated on getting as much defence as I could - I couldnt even get into the mountain snake cave
Level 50-60 - Snake skins, and all but one of the defense items (Leather Gloves - which I think I may have accidently sold)
Level 60-65 - Game play is slowing down, as what I really need is more DEX & VIT and more defence and healing items
(I still cannot survive long in the snake caves being a warrior)
66-70 My Character development is stalling - I am told that the only real way to progress is as an Archer, that the Warrior is disadvantaged in the game)
Pushing on - just killing the same old monsters over and over - just surviving - but now my healing items dont work properly anymore (and I die in the caves again)
But 70-71 seems to have taken an extra ordinary amount of time. I am told how I should have been an Archer,
and to forget about leveling up the player evenly, it doesnt work.

Since I have virtually stalled on building up my Characters levels anymore,
I have been concentrating on doing other things
The most interesting/time consuming thing has been gathering materials for Tank Tops of every color, with matching cotton shorts - lol
Not sure what I will do for the week that I need to wear these "Dark Green" clothes for, but I suppose it will be a sort of passing out ceremony.

Hopefully I will be able to "remort" into a miner soon.

Still enjoying the game
ikms

P.S. Have done 2 quests that give a small amount of XP considering what is required to level up now.
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Re: Feedback - Experience Points

Post by Black Don » 17 Oct 2008, 03:51

I remember that before the snake pit even with fast attack it was a challenge just to hit level 80. Then the snake pit was put in and any one could hit level 90 in about 2-3 months. If it is so hard to get past level 71 then why is it that just to be in the top 50 in levels you have to hit level 78? I think you did not relies the amount of time it took to have a high level character. Just making it easier makes all the people who spent the time on leveling worthless. It takes a lot of time determination to get to high level. That is why not everyone is a high level. And about the mouboo's, if you learn the big caves (and they are not that hard if you take the time) you will find areas filled with mouboo's to kill to your harts content.
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Re: Feedback - Experience Points

Post by ikms » 17 Oct 2008, 23:55

Hopefully my posting has not been misunderstood.
The game has been good so far, unfolding as I have progressed.
Well Done TMW team !

The fact that many people have spend months achieving XP points,
shows their determination to persist with the game regardless of how difficult it becomes,
in many games of this type, this small but determined group will strive to achieve the ultimate score.
However most commonly these are the repeatitive "race type" games developed for companies like Nintendo, Microsoft or Sony.

I thought TMW would have been a better fit into the "quest type" game,
"World of Warcraft - Nodtronics" comes to mind
Perhaps it is also a "Social" type game as well, "www.secondlife.com" springs to mind here.

My suggestion is simply not to make XP points the "main game objective" in the final TMW.

I am purely concerned with good game design.
That within TMW, there is a clear objective, and a strategy and reasonable timeframe for achieveing this.
I dont believe that the objective should be entirely "Character Development" through Experience.

In most Character development type games, there are many objectives along the path to success.
Various skills and Experience is gained as the game progresses, until the final objective is reached.

No player should need to take years or decades to acheive the games objective regardless of the approach they have taken.
A good game should adopt many approaches to achieving the end game goal,
with each approach having a distinct set of advantages/disadvantages.
But no player should every be trapped in the game unable to continue without any achievable targets. (Programmers - Dead Ends)

Is there part of TMW Wiki showing the both the Strategic and Tactical Plans on TMW development. ?

I really do hope that my suggestions and feedback, help improve the game for everyone that plays it,
As much as I do appreciate protecting those players with levels above say 60, (me included),
and the amount of time they have spend collecting XP points, regardless of how they did it,
just to develop their characters. I dont think the final product (TMW) should be about XP.

If we keep in mind that at some point we are going to all be on a new server and reset back to the beginning of the game,
Do we really want a good game to play, with all the bugs out of it, that we understand is challenging and achievable,
or do we want the same unimproved game we had at the beginning ?

Game Life is very hard to determine - but depending on the audience may be between 6-18 months.
We need to keep our audience, not alienate them. I would suggest on completion of the game, that a small box is created across the screen,
Thanking the Player for particiapating in the game, and asking if they would care to donate to its future further development ?
The Tactical Plan for TMW, the add/moves/changes to the game could them become ongoing, with professional paid people being bought in to complete any works that suitable volunteers could not be found for.

Regards
ikms
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Re: Feedback - Experience Points

Post by octalot » 18 Oct 2008, 00:56

ikms wrote:For reference my Character is Level 71 ...
it takes 15 seconds to kill a Moubou and 45 Seconds to locate another on the map,
they yield 600XP points - So the maths is easy E.G. 1 minute of playing = 600XP.
I think the balance between monster difficulty and experience points needs tweaking.
My level 54 character can find and kill 10 spiky mushrooms in a minute, giving more XP than a moubou (and taking a lot less damage).
I suspect the fastest way to get XP would be to slaughter maggots and scorpions in Tulimshar, which seems wrong at this level.
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Re: Feedback - Experience Points

Post by ikms » 18 Oct 2008, 02:08

RE: I think the balance between monster difficulty and experience points needs tweaking
I definately agree.

Refering to http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articl ... le2055.asp

"In many games, the player is sucked in by the challenge of making it through the game. The sense of accomplishment that can be derived from actually solving a difficult problem has a serious short-term consequence: it increases the player's confidence, pushing him to continue through the game, or to persist if he fails a few times. But difficulty is a double-edged knife, because if it is not controlled correctly by the designer, it may destroy the player's motivation because the game is too hard, or lose his interest because the game is too hard. Pleasing the player obviously goes through taming the difficulty.

Anyone in the gaming world is more or less familiar with platform games: those games that present the player with a world to explore with an emphasis on movement (such as jumping from platform to platform) rather than the killing of enemies. Some of these games insist on the brain-teasing dimension of their gameplay (such as Oddworld games) while others insist on the dexterity required to artfully dodge the traps, reach the ledges, and make it through the world unharmed (for instance, Crash Bandicoot).

In the former case, the difficulty consists in finding a solution to the puzzles in the game, rather than actually solving them. Once the player figures out what to do, he is usually able to move past the obstacle without problems. In dexterity-based platform games, on the other hand, the solution is usually close at hand, and the difficulty is that of actually implementing the easy solution: a series of well-timed jumps over gaps, traps, pits, and other devious mechanisms. There are, of course, rules that difficulty follows when emerging from such simple construction bricks"

The XP points should be easy the tasks/quests difficult

Also refering to http://gamasutra.com/features/20000724/pritchard_01.htm

"The sad truth is that the Internet is full of people that love to ruin the online experiences of others. They get off on it. A great many cheaters use hacks, trainers, bots, and whatnot in order to win games. But while some openly try to wreak havoc, many really want to dominate and crush opponents, trying to make other players think they are gods at the game -- not the cheaters they are"

and

"I'm reminded of a quote from Greg Costikyan's excellent report, "The Future of Online Gaming" (http://www.costik.com): "An online game's success or failure is largely determined by how the players are treated. In other words, the customer experience -- in this case, the player experience -- is the key driver of online success."

Regards
ikms
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