Crack-down on rule #5

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Re: Crack-down on rule #5

Post by yasha » Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:45 pm

jaxad0127 wrote:What does that have to do with needing another question?

Many US States have English as the (or an) official language.
But still not all. Being American doesn't mean knowing English. That's all I wanted to say.
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Re: Crack-down on rule #5

Post by Jaxad0127 » Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:02 pm

yasha wrote:
jaxad0127 wrote:What does that have to do with needing another question?

Many US States have English as the (or an) official language.
But still not all. Being American doesn't mean knowing English. That's all I wanted to say.
But, you made it sound like they'd only select that if they spoke English.
yasha wrote:You are English speaker:
A-Yes, British (skips the test), B-Yes, American or other "natural" English (has 1 more question), C-Yes, non-natural speaker (has whole test) D-??? (instant ban).
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Re: Crack-down on rule #5

Post by yasha » Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:10 pm

I lacked of knowing English to express that how i should.... I more thought like British like "home" of English, so people there speak "real" English, Other English-speaking countries have some differences. That's 1 more reason why they have 1 more question. Another reason is like I said, being American (or Canadian) doesn't mean knowing English.
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Re: Crack-down on rule #5

Post by Jaxad0127 » Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:40 pm

yasha wrote:I lacked of knowing English to express that how i should.... I more thought like British like "home" of English, so people there speak "real" English, Other English-speaking countries have some differences. That's 1 more reason why they have 1 more question. Another reason is like I said, being American (or Canadian) doesn't mean knowing English.
You do know that most native speakers speak American English, right?
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Re: Crack-down on rule #5

Post by kr0n05931 » Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:30 pm

The only difference between American/Canadian English and British English is the pronunciations of words, and some spelling changes.


British English:

Colour, Behaviour, Centre, Theatre

American English:

Color, Behavior, Center, Theater

American English even branches out into different dialects, such as Midwestern, Southern, Texan, Northeastern, Northern, and Western. The same thing is happening with Latin American/South American Spanish and Spanish Spanish.

Lingual evolution at its finest, perhaps in a few hundred years we shall see a new language emerge out of one of the two.
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Re: Crack-down on rule #5

Post by Habari » Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:51 pm

kr0n05931 wrote:The only difference between American/Canadian English and British English is the pronunciations of words, and some spelling changes.
you are forgetting about words that are completely different:
garbage/rubish
lorry/truck
Pants/trousers
Football/soccer
ETC:..
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Re: Crack-down on rule #5

Post by kr0n05931 » Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:19 pm

Habari wrote:
kr0n05931 wrote:The only difference between American/Canadian English and British English is the pronunciations of words, and some spelling changes.
you are forgetting about words that are completely different:
garbage/rubish
lorry/truck
Pants/trousers
Football/soccer
ETC:..
And since they mean the same thing, and use the same alphabet, they all qualify as spelling changes.
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Re: Crack-down on rule #5

Post by Automatic James » Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:51 pm

Nice derail. How about discussing the problems with the language rule?

It is obvious that this rule is used primarily to allow thinly veiled or outright racist/ethnocentric behavior to occur.

For example, two Spanish-speaking players are having a conversation in town square, and an English-speaking player is nearby who feels threatened and offended because they are unable to understand the conversation (which is none of their business anyway). The English-speaking player calls a GM (actually I've seen Katze sit in town and behave like this himself) and the GM enforces this bigotry by attempting to threaten the Spanish-speaking players into speaking English, and then banning them if they refuse.

The rationalization most often provided for this rule and this behavior is that without multilingual GMs the game would be horrible chaos because the thought police would be unable to moderate every single conversation and someone might be offended. First, multilingual GMs are only a problem because the current ruling clique of TMW has no desire to "give some idiot from South America GM powers," another clearly ethnocentric point of view.

Next, there is the issue of over-policing in TMW period. Just as they assume anyone not speaking English is dumb and disrespectful, this group of players assumes that anyone who does not care for them personally or has a different playstyle is a bot. This whole witch hunt police state atmosphere is entirely inappropriate for a pre-alpha MMO, which should be focused more on developing an enjoyable and bug-free game--something that an larger and happier playerbase contributes to.

So, unless this project is able to distance itself from the clique of paranoid elitists who are currently dominant, TMW is doomed to be a project serving these people and these people alone.

I will reply to substantive responses to these points but I will also reserve the right to decide what is substantive in this case. lol.

"Who are these people and what is this clique?"
"What if the Spanish speakers were cussing at the poor victimized Westerner?"
and other such responses will be ignored.
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Re: Crack-down on rule #5

Post by kr0n05931 » Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:44 pm

Automatic James wrote:
It is obvious that this rule is used primarily to allow thinly veiled or outright racist/ethnocentric behavior to occur.
So now we have to be of one race to speak a language? You do realize that there are two white majority countries (Spain and Portugal) that speak Spanish and Portuguese.
For example, two Spanish-speaking players are having a conversation in town square, and an English-speaking player is nearby who feels threatened and offended because they are unable to understand the conversation (which is none of their business anyway). The English-speaking player calls a GM (actually I've seen Katze sit in town and behave like this himself) and the GM enforces this bigotry by attempting to threaten the Spanish-speaking players into speaking English, and then banning them if they refuse.
GMs are the long arms of the law, they must enforce it. They have nothing against them, they are just doing their job. And btw, Katze is a native German speaker, a girl, and lives in Germany.
The rationalization most often provided for this rule and this behavior is that without multilingual GMs the game would be horrible chaos because the thought police would be unable to moderate every single conversation and someone might be offended.
The GM's job is to enforce the rules, they must keep The Mana World a safe place, and they must uphold the safety of the players.
First, multilingual GMs are only a problem because the current ruling clique of TMW has no desire to "give some idiot from South America GM powers,"
When did we ever say that? I want verbatim evidence. And FYI, the 3 GMs are not native speakers of English. Vink speaks Danish, Katze speaks German, and Platyna speaks Polish.
another clearly ethnocentric point of view.
If we were ethnocentric, we wouldn't just crack down on language. Why would we be letting them play at all? Strike three.
Next, there is the issue of over-policing in TMW period.
3 GMs police 300 players, yes we are over-policing big time.
Just as they assume anyone not speaking English is dumb and disrespectful, this group of players assumes that anyone who does not care for them personally or has a different playstyle is a bot.
When did we ever say this? The majority of the developers don't speak English as their first language, and one barely speaks it at all. And how would you recommend we search for bots? Should we write some kind of super mind reading program? If you wish to write the program, go ahead. Otherwise, don't comment on our only way of finding bots. Would you prefer that all of the good training areas be overrun by bots and your hours of trying to level extended to days, if not weeks? Not everyone who doesn't speak English is "dumb and disrespectful", we never said this, and certainly never implied it. We just asked politely to speak only English in the public chat so that GMs could moderate.
This whole witch hunt police state atmosphere is entirely inappropriate for a pre-alpha MMO, which should be focused more on developing an enjoyable and bug-free game--something that an larger and happier playerbase contributes to.
Keeping The Mana World LEGAL doesn't suit you as "appropriate"? If people come in, speak a language the GMs don't understand, offer people warez, they take it, and the police shut The Mana World down for illegal activity. Does that suit your "enjoyable" game?
So, unless this project is able to distance itself from the clique of paranoid elitists who are currently dominant, TMW is doomed to be a project serving these people and these people alone.
It's called a targeted demographic, T.V. shows have them, and all Video Games have them. Ever seen game ratings? That's what they are for. If you have a problem with our "elitist" attitude, I recommend you fork the project into your language, and have a player base larger than 10 people, for it to become substantially relevant.
"Who are these people and what is this clique?"
"What if the Spanish speakers were cussing at the poor victimized Westerner?"
and other such responses will be ignored.
Spanish is a western language. Wow, how about reading Wikipedia for once? And if we are ignoring responses, why are we posting in this topic at all?


You are attacking people, flaming the developers, and digging your case into the ground. No one will listen to you if you are impolite and highly accusatory in your debates. Also, using the race card only used when you are at a dead end in your arguments, and have no other points. You are simply reusing arguments that have been proved to be wrong time and time again. You need not be a certain race to speak a language, Spanish and Portuguese are also spoken as an official language in predominantly white countries, and most of the developers do not even speak English as their first language. So stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
Last edited by kr0n05931 on Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crack-down on rule #5

Post by yasha » Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:47 pm

jaxad0127 wrote:
yasha wrote:I lacked of knowing English to express that how i should.... I more thought like British like "home" of English, so people there speak "real" English, Other English-speaking countries have some differences. That's 1 more reason why they have 1 more question. Another reason is like I said, being American (or Canadian) doesn't mean knowing English.
You do know that most native speakers speak American English, right?
i know, yes yes......

As tired i am you (all) write faster than i read now.... se ya tomorow.

BTW: this is no longer about rule 5, is it?
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Re: Crack-down on rule #5

Post by Automatic James » Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:26 pm

kr0n05931 wrote:nuh uh!
I guess if you continually deny that issues exist, they just go away! Good for you bud.
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Re: Crack-down on rule #5

Post by kr0n05931 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:11 am

Automatic James wrote:
kr0n05931 wrote:nuh uh!
I guess if you continually deny that issues exist, they just go away! Good for you bud.
You have just completely turned a blind eye to my post, and now I to yours. I shall no longer reply to your posts. Like I said, with your current approach of not even replying to my arguments, you are just digging your argument into the ground.

I am trying to keep this civil, and I have a silver tongue ready to flare. The game's coding is Free and Open Source, but the Polish lady and Dutchman who run the server aren't.
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Re: Crack-down on rule #5

Post by Automatic James » Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:32 am

kr0n05931 wrote:
Automatic James wrote:
kr0n05931 wrote:nuh uh!
I guess if you continually deny that issues exist, they just go away! Good for you bud.
You have just completely turned a blind eye to my post, and now I to yours. I shall no longer reply to your posts. Like I said, with your current approach of not even replying to my arguments, you are just digging your argument into the ground.

I am trying to keep this civil, and I have a silver tongue ready to flare. The game's coding is Free and Open Source, but the Polish lady and Dutchman who run the server aren't.
Anyone with half a brain reading both of our posts can see that all you did is take petty jabs at some of my points out of context. What do you want a medal?

If you would like to continue harassing testers in a 2D open-source pre-alpha MMO for speaking their native language in town square then go right ahead, but don't expect people to buy your rationalizations when your rhetoric is so awfully transparent.
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Re: Crack-down on rule #5

Post by Rotonen » Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:00 am

In the light of:
Platyna wrote:The rules was made by a Polish person, because of concerns that was stated on forums and in game numerous times.

Any international community needs a common language, English is a usual pick for it. It is simple, lacks of diactrics and most of people speak even a little of it.

And what is that talk about third world thing and the access to education? All English I know I have learned myself - because all the darn documentation was in English and there were no rebels against it.

English is current lingua franca, learn it and you will make your life a lot easier - enormous amount of literature, documentation and inter personal relations will open in front of you like golden gate of heavens.

If I was British, then maybe that stuff about discrimination would have some point, but I am not, so cut it or I will start lobby to make Polish official in game language, and then you will have a problem.

Also it was told gazzilion times we will have channels, so you will be able to make a channel in your language and maintain it, however English will be most likely always the only allowed language on "local" public chat.

Also I don't want to hear moaning about how English is difficult to learn since it differs from one's native language. Actually Spanish, German, Portuguese is a lot more similar to English than Polish which is COMPLETELY different.

Resistance is futile.

Hugs and kisses.
Your auntie Platyna.
(Internet Censorship Agency President)
So argument summarization so far:

Break down the rule:
  • People like their native languages
  • People are offended by people harassing the usage of their native languages
Keep the rule:
  • To avoid legal trouble by players scheming something illegal
  • The GM cannot help people with whom they cannot communicate
Simplified down: the server admin does not want to take legal responsibility over what you say on the server.

Personally I'm not sure if we're responsible for what the players say in the game, but I'm going to hold that assumption until someone proves it wrong. Experts on the Polish law?

Sticking to English only does not make this problem go away, but it makes managing it easier. By managing I mean taking action about it and reporting to local authorities.

If the legal problem is proven not to exist, then we get to the next issue: quality of service for people not speaking English at all.

My arguments on this:
  • People are likely to know someone with English skills
  • I'm proposing mediator positions for major language groups
IMO after all this a statement about English being the only supported language for official interaction would suffice.
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Re: Crack-down on rule #5

Post by yasha » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:57 pm

Rotonen wrote:Break down the rule:
  • People like their native languages
  • People are offended by people harassing the usage of their native languages
Keep the rule:
  • To avoid legal trouble by players scheming something illegal
  • The GM cannot help people with whom they cannot communicate
Only difference is that two break downs are standing on hard rock, and second two are floating in the air. What I want to say is that first two are 100% like that, can't be changed and always will be supported, and second two are changing depending on person talking and person reading, and have lot of "holes" in them. If somebody is Spanish and talks only Spanish, and GM knows Spanish this two sentences here useless, but if somebody is speaking Greek and GM speaks German and English these rules seem 100% right. But still, it looks like this rule can't change, so we'll just hold on until new server comes. I think this rule is not so "strong" to be "famous" but is strong enough to stay standing.

I know how GMs feel, I am admin on Urban Terror where server's bot automaticly warn players who say something bad. Thing is bot isn't smart and sometimes understand normal foreign words as bad words. As admin I can't help in that case. Word isn't bad, player is good, but I don't know that language and i can't know if player lies or bot. Since being admin isn't profession, and mostly it isn't paid, admins can make mistakes and in situation like this can do what they want. And then what will happen when player (who is baned or something like that) wants justice?
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