English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

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Elrrohir
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English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by Elrrohir » 02 Jan 2009, 07:21

Platyna, the fact that u close the thread about this issue is another sign that the rule itself is a crappy rule. I read a great post by manjes and no one take it seriously; well thats just a shame.
I also read another post too... by crush:
Elrrohir wrote:
B) does anyone really thinks that if someone comes to me (i.e.) and tries to sell me child porn, in any language i can understand, it'll walk without being reported? I will report that user. BTW, if i do that, the people who owns the servers where the game is hosted is obliged to make a call to the police and give them the IP address that this player use to connect to the game.
And exactly this is the problem.

The server admins can not deal with your report because you can not provide evidence in a language they can understand. You can only send them a screenshot with chat in a foreign language. You could provide a translation, but they could not trust it, because they do not know if you maybe want to frame the person for some personal reason.

So the administrators will be unable to act on your report and thus they will not fulfill their obligation to report the offender to the authorities. In the end this could lead to them getting in trouble, too.

Do you now understand why this is such a big problem?
This is absolutely ridiculous!
Lets assume that a player (we'll call him A) raises a complain and sends a screenshot where another player (called B) offers him child porn in spanish. Now player A is an anonymous being for the admins/mods and so, why to trust his translation is real? well, u can ask another players and see what they say (and actually u can use the forum if u want to get different translations to be sure)... since my reputation is as "thin" as any other in terms of being a trustworthy translator, you can use this same forum to recruit some players that speak another languages.. i offer myself to check it if needed and i might not be the only one.

Of course, theres another interesting detail... there are lots of non natural english speakers, so this offer in particular, could be done by player B in many different languages.

the other thing is, if this situation occurs and the chat is in english, whats the difference? you just get rid of the part where u dont trust the person is reporting the incident! but still how can u be sure?

If A is trying to "ambush" B and fills a false report against him, there are plenty of ways to check if the report is trustworthy... once again, non of the "reasons" given are convincing anyone about the holiness of this rule.

and as a final comment, Platyna, censorship makes things better for the people that questions this rule. I'll keep bringing this issue to discussion as many times as needed till we get some results.

Elrrohir.

BTW: happy new year everyone :)
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Crush
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by Crush » 02 Jan 2009, 07:32

We discussed this topic among the development team and came to the agreement that the speak english rule will stay like it is for the reasons already mentioned a hundred times.

The course of action you are suggesting is too complicated. Especially for more exotic languages. Our game masters are only working in their spare time.
Elrrohir wrote:I'll keep bringing this issue to discussion as many times as needed till we get some results.
You mean you will spam the forum until you get what you want?
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by Elrrohir » 02 Jan 2009, 07:47

Crush wrote:We discussed this topic among the development team and came to the agreement that the speak english rule will stay like it is for the reasons already mentioned a hundred times.

The course of action you are suggesting is too complicated. Especially for more exotic languages. Our game masters are only working in their spare time.
Elrrohir wrote:I'll keep bringing this issue to discussion as many times as needed till we get some results.
You mean you will spam the forum until you get what you want?
no, i mean i'll keep bothering you all with this till someone gives an intelligent answer. i'm still not convinced by the arguments given and i'm sure i'm not the only one... instead of putting resources to develop more quests or expand the world i read about "how can we ban all the non english speakers" posts... the system i have proposed isn't that hard to implement and it has been clear and well presented. i would really like to get a real answer, not the usual: cause we say so :P

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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by yasha » 02 Jan 2009, 09:54

Elrrohir, I totally agree with you, I am not natural english and i am against this rule. But i realized something: you won't get intelligent answer you are waiting for.... It is useless to speak to people who don't see that it isn't good rule. This can only lead to more posts for trolls.
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by Elrrohir » 02 Jan 2009, 12:54

you maybe right, but ill continue this annoyance till this rule gets changed. so far, all the stupid arguments i've heard are incomplete, childish or invalid. this rule has several problems: its playing against the game for lot of reasons, and im really amazed that devs, mods and such can't see this.

if they were welling to at least admit that the rule sucks, i will feel more comfortable knowing that they can reason...

about the democratic argumetn that i've read in some other posts, they may not be aware of what democracy means, the only way to rule they know is absolutism... Back to USSR.
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by EJlol » 02 Jan 2009, 13:21

well IMO the rule sucks, but there are a few things you have to keep in mind:
  • The point about GM's not understanding the language is a very valid point
  • Closing topic's like this is also good IMO
    • You are just repeating your arguments
    • You already brought up the issue, and the devs have discussed it
  • It's your own choice to play this game, if you don't like it, stop playing, we won't miss you.
    • Feel free to start your own non-english server where you ban all english speaking people. Or a server where everyone may play, whatever you prefer.
    • This is a free MMORPG, so you should already be happy that you may play the game.
    • If the online playercount significant dropped that would give us a clear signal that something is "wrong", so if you really want to change this rule, just go away.
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by yasha » 02 Jan 2009, 17:37

EJlol wrote:[*] If the online playercount significant dropped that would give us a clear signal that something is "wrong", so if you really want to change this rule, just go away.[/list][/list]
So you'll keep going in wrong direction until you'll have less than 5 players? I won't leave because one rule sux because game is good. I just don't like it and I won't it to be changed. I understand that admins don't know all languages, but all peoples aren't assholes and they want to help. I specially like game because people are willing to help. So they will help GMs to understand what some suspicious person is talking. If you don't trust anyone, you should trust dictionaries. How did you take care of problem before this rule existed?
EJlol wrote: Closing topic's like this is also good IMO
  • You are just repeating your arguments
  • You already brought up the issue, and the devs have discussed it
And you are repeating your arguments all time :s
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by EJlol » 02 Jan 2009, 20:11

So you'll keep going in wrong direction until you'll have less than 5 players? I won't leave because one rule sux because game is good. I just don't like it and I won't it to be changed.
Yes, we will keep going in the "wrong" direction until we have less than 5 players. I don't mind if you stay but then you have to follow the rules. And the rules says speak english on public chat. There is always something about a game that people don't like. live with it because it won't change.
I understand that admins don't know all languages, but all peoples aren't assholes and they want to help
And how does a GM knows the difference between a asshole and a nice player?
If you don't trust anyone, you should trust dictionaries.
1. You need to know to how the language is called before you can translate it. (for example, I don't see the difference between spanish and portuguese)
2. Free online translators are very bad in translating
3. It takes a lot of time to translate.
How did you take care of problem before this rule existed?
We didn't care. And that wasn't good either.
And you are repeating your arguments all time :s
Indeed. :wink:
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by yasha » 03 Jan 2009, 11:18

With leaving you won't come anywhere, you'll lose this fun game, and they won't even notice you leaving...... And not all players will leave, whatever you do. They want us to go, so that's one more reason to stay :D .
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by EJlol » 03 Jan 2009, 13:45

And not all players will leave, whatever you do. They want us to go, so that's one more reason to stay :D .
:)

Don't forget that TMWserv will have different chatchannels, you can create a guild/party there with people who speak a different language without annoying other people.
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by yasha » 03 Jan 2009, 16:32

EJlol wrote:Don't forget that TMWserv will have different chatchannels, you can create a guild/party there with people who speak a different language without annoying other people.
On non-english language I've said only one sentence (without whispers) and it was at waterfalls, so non-public place. I won't break rule even if it is stupid. I always speak English, and even when somebody speaks some other language I don't mind it...
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by EJlol » 03 Jan 2009, 16:41

IMO you may break this rule, unless people ask you to stop speaking your language.
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by Crush » 03 Jan 2009, 16:57

EJlol wrote:IMO you may break this rule, unless people ask you to stop speaking your language.
And how are they supposed to ask you to stop talking when you don't understand them?
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by Automatic James » 03 Jan 2009, 17:13

I got bored and thought I'd check in on these forums, and the first thread I read reminds me why I don't play this game anymore... Way to go?

Large portion of the playerbase: "There is a problem!"
Small elitist portion of the playerbase: "Nuh uh!"
Devs: "We have discussed this already and there is no problem."
Large portion of the playerbase: "There is a problem!"
and so on...

The "English only in public places" rule is ostensibly a legal/management issue, but in practice it is a way for ethnocentric jerks to complain when anyone dares to have a conversation in a language they can't understand. There is absolutely no reason why folks shouldn't be able to chat in their native language without being banned for it, except that certain English speakers are offended or even jealous when they are unable to understand a conversation.

Why not focus on listening to anyone who actually wants to play TMW and developing a game that is more fun, rather than wasting efforts pandering to a few whining bigots by playing language police?

Elrrohir please know there are native English speakers who support your cause, most of us just quit the game already because TMW devs take similar childish positions on other issues.
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by EJlol » 03 Jan 2009, 17:37

Crush wrote:
EJlol wrote:IMO you may break this rule, unless people ask you to stop speaking your language.
And how are they supposed to ask you to stop talking when you don't understand them?
All players should at least understand basic english, otherwise you shouldn't play a english game.
Large portion of the playerbase: "There is a problem!"
Small elitist portion of the playerbase: "Nuh uh!"
Devs: "We have discussed this already and there is no problem."
Large portion of the playerbase: "There is a problem!"
This is rubbish IMO.

1. How do you know what a large portion is and what a small portion. Do you have numbers? If you do not have numbers, please don't say things like "large" portion or "small" portion.
2. AFAIR, no developer said that there wasn't a problem. They only said that the best solution in their opinion was keeping the rule because of stated arguments. And they also said that in the future there might be different chatchannels, though that is still a longway.
There is absolutely no reason why folks shouldn't be able to chat in their native language without being banned for it
May I ask you how many people already banned for speaking their native language? AFAIK the GMs are nice enough to ask people first to speak english MULTIPLE times. So you can just speak your native language until someone asks you to speak english without having to worry about being banned. And there are reasons, which are already stated multiple times...
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