Boss Monsters

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Crush
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Boss Monsters

Post by Crush » Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:54 pm

in the graphic development forum we came to the discussion about boss fights in tmw.

ktm's anwer to the question if boss fights fit into the tmw concept at all was:
ktm wrote:why not? we'd just need to make sure only one spawns at any given time, and that it spawns at the "end" of the dungeon, as in, last room of a labyrinth or something like that. maybe we could do this by placing an invisible npc there that respawns the boss 5mins after it died, right next to the npc (though that's be a baaaad workaround)? i wasn't really happy with the way the spiders went to the starting point of mines2, instantly killing the people entering, so i think we need some kind of "monster location restrictions" anyways
my idea about how boss fights could be organized was:
Crush wrote:how about putting boss monsters on their own maps with no mosters but them? in old console tradition these maps could be made without an exit and the only way leaving it is by either killing the boss or getting killed by it. when the boss is killed everyone on the boss map is warped back into the next town (maybe we should give them a minute to claim their drops). when the victorious players are warped out the boss respawns immediately for the next party. this also avoids spawn camping bosses without making it too easy to kill a boss over and over again bacause the party who killed the boss must walk through the entire dungeon again to fight the boss again. do you think this is scriptable? (if not make it scriptable ;))
Mondanung replied:
Mondanung wrote:I think it's a great idea.

We could do it like this:
If you enter the boss-room for the first time you (and your party?) enter combat with the boss. If you defeat him two exits will appear, one leading back and one leading to the next world.
If you die during battle you will respawn at the previous town/spawning point.
After you have defeaten the boss the boss-room will be empty or skipped.

I'd say that you could also enter the boss fight with your partymembers, but every party member should first be in reasonable range, or enter the door that leads to the boss-room. Quite similar to hosting a multiplayer game with the ready-system.
The strength of the boss will be adapted to the number of partymembers joining in the fight.
Every party member that doesn't join the boss fight will be registered as not fighted that boss and has to fight it before being able to pass through.

So if the defeated-boss-room wouldn't be skipped there would be one of it, in which every player who has defeated the boss could freely enter and leave.
For every player/party that hasn't defeated the boss yet there would be one boss-room. This to prevent waiting.
so whats your opinion about that topic?
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Post by ElvenProgrammer » Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:32 pm

I don't agree that the boss should be at the end of the dungeon. We can have minibosses as well, that you can skip by running through the next door (probably not without a lot of damage). But yeah the final boss will be in the last room and after killing it you'll get your reward. If you get killed, well I'm sorry but you'll respawn outside of the dungeon or in the nearest town. Then you can go down again and test your luck :P
I agree that final boss (and maybe minibosses as well) should be killed only once by a party/player/guild. My cousin, who plays WoW told me that there are rooms in which you enter and you're alone with your party, no other players allowed, so we could use a mechanism like that (even if not so hard to implement maybe will be very stressful for the server). But a question arises...what if a player changes party? That was not unusual in RO. I can think of 2 solutions:
1 - Creating parties is harder: you have to pay money, register it or whatever else...
2 - The room remembers every player that was in, if one of the players has already been there and killed the monster then none of his new party members will get a monster...

I'm not so happy about those ideas though, I'll ask my cousin better how it works in WoW (if they have only once spawning monsters) or if you have some experience about it you can write it here.
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Post by Crush » Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:25 pm

in wow every dungeon is a so called "instance". every party which enters it gets its own copy of it. so hundreds of partys can fight their way through the same dungeon the same time without noticing each other.

most monsters in an instance don't respawn as long as one member of the party is still in there. when the whole party left the instance and enters it again then it is created new with all the monsters.

i personally don't like instancing like it is done in world of warcraft or guildwars. i think it's against the spirit of a massive multiplayer RPG when you take your party and go into your own private instance which is isolated from the rest of the world. the feature that makes MMORPGs interesting is that hundreds of players share the same world with the posibility to meet new people everywhere. instancing ruins that.


about the idea of allowing every player to kill every boss just once: i don't like it. why should we put that restriction on players? a friend of mine is a member of a wow guild which does nothing but killing boss monsters in instances. they killed many boss monsters quite a lot. they really like varying their strategy and experiment with different tactical approaches on the bosses. when they would only be able to kill every boss monster just once, they would soon have killed every boss in the game and they would have nothing more to do. and what would be if someone missed a raid? noone in the guild would be able to help him to experient this fight, too, because noone could fight the boss a 2nd time.

and what about when you just beat a boss with luck? or when you were petrified or whatever during the whole fight and your party did all the work? or when you beat a boss and later someone tells you about a better way to do so. then you can never fight the boss again and find out how you would have made under different circumstances.


when a player likes to fight a boss more then once, then why shouldn't we permit him to do so?
Last edited by Crush on Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by ElvenProgrammer » Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:32 pm

I think I misunderstood you, anyway what you ask it's possible and really easy to implement in my opinion.
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Post by Bear » Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:07 am

I say we just go with what Ragnarok has >.>

Just spawn it somewhere on the map and let the players take care of all the thinking.

If theres a party who likes to hog bosses, im pretty sure there are.... then just let the players worry about that >.>

i mean..not to burst anyones bubble, but i dont thinka whole lota people are gunna be able to beat the monsters >.> just set a timed respawn, fore example, 30 mins to 1 1/2 hrs
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Re: re

Post by Modanung » Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:34 am

Bear wrote:i mean..not to burst anyones bubble, but i dont thinka whole lota people are gunna be able to beat the monsters >.>
Then either the monster is too hard or those people shouldn't bother venturing into the next/harder world/area.
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Post by Degraine » Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:36 am

Bear wrote:I say we just go with what Ragnarok has >.>

Just spawn it somewhere on the map and let the players take care of all the thinking.

If theres a party who likes to hog bosses, im pretty sure there are.... then just let the players worry about that >.>

i mean..not to burst anyones bubble, but i dont thinka whole lota people are gunna be able to beat the monsters >.> just set a timed respawn, fore example, 30 mins to 1 1/2 hrs
I have to disagree with this. Ragnarok Online has some nice ideas, but it also has a lot of poorly implemented ones. Everquest had major bosses being scheduled for beatings by various guilds. If your turn was at 3am in the morning on a Tuesday two weeks from now, heaven help you if you couldn't make it.

That's not cool.

I also think that just having monsters randomnly spawn devalues the experience. It's not very epic to run through some abandoned ruins and just randomnly encounter one of the Mana God-Beasts. Access to the major bosses should be a reward for completing a series of quests. This doesn't preclude being able to challenge them again after you defeat them, but that first time should really mean something. Even Nethack had an objective beyond 'level up, fight progressively harder monsters'. RO doesn't even have that.
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Post by Bear » Thu Sep 01, 2005 5:03 am

Actualy i didnt exactly mean what you thought i meant :o

in Ragnarok theres a boss monster called Drake, to get to Drake, you need to go into a Shipwreck. and you need to find your way to his room, which is just another room :l

And i must disagree about Ragnarok being purely
I also think that just having monsters randomnly spawn devalues the experience.
Ragnarok Online has a fixed set of monsters for every field, going from weak to strong.

Also what i meant about it spawning is spawn in a certain area, just make intervals of when it spawns so we dont have people kiling it over and over.
Everquest had major bosses being scheduled for beatings by various guilds. If your turn was at 3am in the morning on a Tuesday two weeks from now, heaven help you if you couldn't make it.
Is that good or bad?
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Post by Degraine » Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:30 pm

What I actually meant with the 'monsters randomnly spawning' bit was bosses spawning (my fault, I wasn't specific enough). I'm not talking about the palette-shifted bosses on the field maps of RO (which were implemented to foul up bots), but the heavyweights like ol' Baphomet. There's no storyline behind a confrontation with him, no history, nothing. Just an entry on RO Database and a dungeon that he spawns in once every two hours. Which is quite a waste of a boss monster, in my opinion.

Also, on the scheduling thing, yes, absolutely. If you want to make it difficult to 'camp' a boss, there are better ways than giving it a long respawn timer. The way I was told, there were committees of guilds on Everquest (the old one, mind) who decided on a timetable of when guilds would be allowed to have a go at a specific major boss monster. This strikes me as a really poor state of affairs, and if I was given the choice between this and allowing anyone to take on any boss they wanted whenever - assuming they could fight their way through a dungeon to it - then I would choose the latter without hesitation.

Can't respond further until Monday (as I will be in Melbourne), unfortunately. Hopefully I'm getting the gist of my thoughts across properly.
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Post by ktm » Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:37 pm

Degraine wrote:If you want to make it difficult to 'camp' a boss, there are better ways than giving it a long respawn timer.
for example, make a "two-way" dungeon, whith the player entering in the "middle", then drop the boss randomly on either end of it. so campers'd have to either split up, or constantly run from one end to the other till they find the boss.
or make 2-3 boss maps, which get rotated whenever the boss is killed, like:
party a gets in dungeon a, kills boss -> rotation (while p.a stays in d.a)
party b gets in (new) dungeon b, party c gets in, before the boss's dead, so they they kill him together, which they do -> rotation
party d gets in dungeon c
etc...
so basically you have to leave the map completely and reenter to get to a "new" boss. kinda like "instances", just with the possibility for multiple parties to "share" a dungeon. donwside: if there's too little maps, campers could just hold out for a whole rotation...
also, with different maps, you could diversify the whole thing a little (of course, eventually one gets to know every map, but for the first few runs it's be something new).
Last edited by ktm on Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:47 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by Bear » Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:41 pm

if if think about it >.>
If given the proper ammount of maps and monsters... i can make this happen :D

This is a system used in E-athena's MVP rooms, boss monster rooms. Except it doesnt matter who goes in, but lets a maximum amount of people in.

Im not sure, but MAYBE, athena scripting includes partys >.>
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Post by _darkKnight_ » Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:38 am

I have in mind two kind of boss.

1 - The boss is placed in a room at the end of dungeon. Everyone can enter in the room, but noone can leave it until boss is killed or you're killed by boss and respawn in the town next to the dungeon. When boss is killed the room is unlocked and the server set a timer, something about 5 minutes to boss respawn. The boss will respawn only if room is empty. If everyone is killed and the boss room become empty (with boss alive yet), the boss will be fully healed

2 - The boss is placed in a locked room at the end of dungeon. You need an special key to enter in the room, when you entered in the room the key will be droped from your invetory. You can get out of the room, but to enter again you need to find another key. When boss is going to die (boss HP is less the 25%) the key will not work for other players that try to enter in the room to fight, they will have to wait for player in kill the boss or boss kill players in and boss room become empty. The boss will be healed if the room is empty like in the 1st exemple. When boss is killed it will respawn when the room is empty.

The both exemples need a system that transport in 1 minute everyone that is in the boss room after boss is killed, all players will be transported to outside of the dungeon, always have one stupid player that will try to block boss respawn.
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Post by Bear » Thu Sep 08, 2005 6:02 am

well, i think 5 minutes is too little time for a boss to respawn... i say allow around 45 mins >.>

I know it may seem long, but it keeps the economy steady by making players sell their boss drops for higher. Not being able to fight the boss too often is a good thing >.>
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Post by Kineticstorm » Thu Sep 08, 2005 2:42 pm

How about the group that killed the boss waits 45 minutes while everyone else has to wait 5-10? It's sorta unfair to have everyone wait 45 minutes for it to spawn... What if a group is ready to fight the boss but the same group from before goes in first and kills it again?
I don't think that would be fair to everyone...
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Post by ktm » Thu Sep 08, 2005 2:46 pm

well, with the current number of players, you could easily go for +6h, and it'd -still- be there every time someone with a high enough level passes by... but yes, bosses should definitely be harder to get to than the "usual suspects".
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