Digging up dirty facts about server move and the takeover.

[o11c]

The way I see it, the data on the Platinum server was destroyed exclusively to hurt Platyna.

We've been over this dozens of times. We did not delete anything from Platinum; Platyna only thought that at first because she didn't actually look at the filesystem, and it has been continued to be spread by her partisans even after she acknowledged her error.
In fact, Platyna is running a full copy of the forums and server and pulling all the updates that we make, as well as bribing players with free items to play on her version of the server.
Last I checked, she's also hitting our update server, which is rather impolite in the website world, but since nobody plays on her server, it's not much of a resource drain ...

[GARRETTtheGREAT]

We've been over this dozens of times...

I've yet to see this discussion. It's possible that I've missed something somewhere.

I don't think that makes sense though; my character data was from an older date than when the move occurred. The forums, wiki, etc. also are missing a few days of information, which looks to me like a previous backup was restored and not the actual data.

...as well as bribing players with free items to play on her version of the server.
Last I checked, she's also hitting our update server, which is rather impolite in the website world, but since nobody plays on her server, it's not much of a resource drain ...

I understand you don't like her, and probably me as well by proxy or possibly because we don't see eye to eye, but I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.

[o11c]

I've yet to see this discussion. It's possible that I've missed something somewhere.

I'm pretty sure it was mentioned in *all* of the drama threads, which I do not want to reread.

I don't think that makes sense though; my character data was from an older date than when the move occurred. The forums, wiki, etc. also are missing a few days of information, which looks to me like a previous backup was restored and not the actual data.

From the ManaMarket thread, I can observe that the forums have data all the way up to the date of the initial move (March 9, to the non-DDoS-protected host).

Platyna did, however, delete at least the News thread about the move.

I can't speak for what her wiki or game has right now, but we didn't delete it at the time.

...as well as bribing players with free items to play on her version of the server.
Last I checked, she's also hitting our update server, which is rather impolite in the website world, but since nobody plays on her server, it's not much of a resource drain ...

I understand you don't like her, and probably me as well by proxy or possibly because we don't see eye to eye, but I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.

It's not that I don't like you. But I get very frustrated when drama keeps happening and happening. That's one of the reasons we left Platyna in the first place!

And despite pushing the line of ad hominem, Platyna's character is *very* relevant to any discussion about the move.

[Jaxad0127]

but there has never been any proof that the data was at risk in Platyna's control.

Read my (large) post again. It was under constant risk.

[GARRETTtheGREAT]

Read my (large) post again. It was under constant risk.

I disagree with your definition of risk in this context. A risk of data loss, possibly. I'm speaking of a risk of malicious use. If Platyna lost the data by her own action, there would have been no foul play by the TMWC and I wouldn't have any grievance to address in this regard.

I'm pretty sure it was mentioned in *all* of the drama threads...

...From the ManaMarket thread, I can observe that the forums have data all the way up to the date of the initial move (March 9, to the non-DDoS-protected host)....

...It's not that I don't like you. But I get very frustrated when drama keeps happening and happening. That's one of the reasons we left Platyna in the first place!

And despite pushing the line of ad hominem, Platyna's character is *very* relevant to any discussion about the move.

Well, I appreciate you addressing the issue regardless of how many times it has occurred (and I do mean that sincerely! Sarcasm isn't going to make this discussion useful for anyone). I had specifically asked somewhere along the many discussions for this exact answer and I was never addressed, so I think you could imagine my own frustrations at this scenario.

I suppose it really doesn't matter if my question went unanswered or not, because no one could really ever provide conclusive evidence, but if we're going to really truly discuss this and not just throw verbal s**t at each other like a bunch of apes, I thought this topic should be discussed outside of the last few useless posts.

As far as drama goes, there has been plenty of it after the main event as well. have a lot of interest in contributing to this game and community, but no interest in p**sing competitions. I have to say, there's a lot less of it happening over on Platinum than here, Platyna's character included. I visit the forum there and no one judges me for fraternizing with this group. I come here, and I am instantly an enemy for sympathizing with Platyna. If anyone, doesn't want to like her, fine. But, I personally have a hard time working with people who want to force that on me, and who show not the slightest bit of reverence for large contributions made to the project.

I can't speak for my compatriots, but for me, it would mean a lot if the TMWC would go on the record and pay a decent homage to Platyna for what she has done. If this discussion is really to be productive and not a repeat of recent threads, that's where I would start. If the TMWC is going to prove they are not going to do the exact things they strove to abolish, then I think a real discussion would be a good start for that as well.

I don't really expect any of this to happen, but then again, I didn't really expect to have a serious discussion on my personal issues with the TMWC either.

[o11c]

Read my (large) post again. It was under constant risk.

I disagree with your definition of risk in this context. A risk of data loss, possibly. I'm speaking of a risk of malicious use. If Platyna lost the data by her own action, there would have been no foul play by the TMWC and I wouldn't have any grievance to address in this regard.

Well, I don't think it's fair to totally dismiss the reliability aspect. We had rollbacks of 3 days all the time on Platinum.

From a security perspective I see the following attack vectors:

• People with physical access to the server. There is no difference between the servers in this matter.
• People with ssh access to the server. We did prune the ssh keys of inactive people during the move, but I don't see this as a significant difference.
• People with ssh access to other accounts on the server. This is not an issue on the new host, since it's ours exclusively. Platinum was usually, but not always, keeping all the users in their own little sandbox, but I'm not really qualified to understand the full implications beyond "there *were* other people on localhost".
• Random people on the internet. I don't know what kind of methods Platyna used for this, but I am confident in the methods on the new host. However, I do remember the time that she broke the web registration form and I had to rewrite it (without even having ssh access at the time! that was fun ...) due to a security upgrade (Slackware is like that). There was also the time the news feed broke during general upgrades, but that wasn't specifically security-related as far as I know.

Well, I appreciate you addressing the issue regardless of how many times it has occurred (and I do mean that sincerely! Sarcasm isn't going to make this discussion useful for anyone). I had specifically asked somewhere along the many discussions for this exact answer and I was never addressed, so I think you could imagine my own frustrations at this scenario.

Yeah, we got tired after a while.

As far as drama goes, there has been plenty of it after the main event as well.

One thing I'm kind of thankful for is that everyone *finally* has a taste of what it was like to face Platyna in private. But the drama is still harmful overall.

I have to say, there's a lot less of it happening over on Platinum than here, Platyna's character included. I visit the forum there and no one judges me for fraternizing with this group. I come here, and I am instantly an enemy for sympathizing with Platyna. If anyone, doesn't want to like her, fine.

Well, on Platinum, there aren't many people, just a handful who are already hold a single opinion on the move (but realize that, realistically, this server is where things are).

I have a lot of interest in contributing to this game and community, but no interest in p**sing competitions.
But, I personally have a hard time working with people who want to force that on me, and who show not the slightest bit of reverence for large contributions made to the project.

It's really not hard to be involved in development without cause problems. Just: 1. Understand that, as an open-source project, your works may be alter by others, whether minimally or to the point that you can't even recognize it, and 2. Don't start any drama. Trying to force large changes is one way that leads to drama.

That's not to say it's not *possible* to push big changes through. But you'd better have a very strong logical argument behind it, and be prepared to deal with the consequences. (I did this when I was first getting into development, when I changed the server configuration from flat to nested. The only trouble I ever had with that was when, a few months later, you-can-probably-guess-who tried to run an administration script and I said "you need to change directories first" and I got a tirade about the responsibilities of developers versus sysadmins)

I can't speak for my compatriots, but for me, it would mean a lot if the TMWC would go on the record and pay a decent homage to Platyna for what she has done. If this discussion is really to be productive and not a repeat of recent threads, that's where I would start. If the TMWC is going to prove they are not going to do the exact things they strove to abolish, then I think a real discussion would be a good start for that as well.

I really doubt a thread started by Platyna, called "Digging up dirty facts about server move and the takeover.", is going to lead to us giving any sort of homage to Platyna.

And ... whenever we close a discussion, it's because the points have already been discussed to death. All of the dozen Platyna-drama threads from just after the move were by people who had already read the previous discussions, which is a violation of forum etiquette at the very least. Spamming the boards does NOT count as making a valid argument, but a surprising number of people seem to fall for it and/or believe it will work.

And, standing alone, whenever a topic is locked by a forum moderator, that is a sign that it is inappropriate to start a new topic on the subject.

Also note that Platyna specifically rejected any compromise here:

Fourth: The only position I would accept in TMW is my old position.

I don't really expect any of this to happen, but then again, I didn't really expect to have a serious discussion on my personal issues with the TMWC either.

The relative lack of drama recently has definitely made it easier for us to fill our instinctive desire to try to please everybody.

[Big Crunch]

I can't speak for my compatriots, but for me, it would mean a lot if the TMWC would go on the record and pay a decent homage to Platyna for what she has done. If this discussion is really to be productive and not a repeat of recent threads, that's where I would start. If the TMWC is going to prove they are not going to do the exact things they strove to abolish, then I think a real discussion would be a good start for that as well.

I don't really expect any of this to happen, but then again, I didn't really expect to have a serious discussion on my personal issues with the TMWC either.

As of March 9, 2013, The Mana World is changing to a different host. As a result, the game, forums, and wiki will be unavailable from 16:00 UTC. The IRC server and neglected Mantis Bug Tracker will be discontinued, in favor of our recovered channels on FreeNode and github issues, respectively.
During the downtime (which ideally would be about an hour, but could be worse), communication will still be available on irc://chat.freenode.net/#themanaworld. Please have patience. We'll do our best. Asking when the server will be up again won't make it faster

We, the senior Developers and GMs of TMW, have chosen unanimously, and after deep consideration, to leave our current host (Platinum) and provider (Platyna). We believe this will provide a better gaming experience.
Our new host will provide:

• A virtual machine (good for portability in case we ever need to move again).
• A linux distribution that is more familiar to game admins.
• An active system administrator, and sufficient assurances in case he ceases to be active with TMW.
• A deliberate separation between owning the host machine and making the rules. We'll publically post our rules for the distribution of power later.

Last but not least we all want to thank Platyna for the years she hosted this server and the time she invested. We wish her all the best in her life and studies.

um, this was the first post of the relocation thread. Please see the last line.

I think at one point or another we've all thanked her and wished her well. I look forward to playing with you again garrett.

BC

[GARRETTtheGREAT]

Well, I don't think it's fair to totally dismiss the reliability aspect...

My point is Platyna was not willfully malicious with the data, therefore the players (not the characters) were not at risk, and therefore she should is entitled to her copy of the data. I'm not arguing about the reasons for the server move. That argument has gone down every possible avenue already. I'm not even arguing about whether or not her data was deleted. I'm simply stating that I do not think deleting her data was and/or would have been proper.

One thing I'm kind of thankful for is that everyone *finally* has a taste of what it was like to face Platyna in private...

I honestly would have had a very similar reaction. I don't think her being exceptionally angry is unusual. Some people not involved at all acted disgracefully; while others with a huge amount at stake didn't say a word.

Well, on Platinum, there aren't many people, just a handful who are already hold a single opinion on the move (but realize that, realistically, this server is where things are).

True, but if all of the "bad" people went to Platinum, there ought to be a lot of bad things happening there. However, it seems by and large that things here have not seen any major change in tone from way before any of this took place, whereas Platinum is acting exactly as what I would think the TMWC is striving for, albeit less populated. Behind the scenes, I'm sure things are different, but I'm just making a casual observation about the tone of the public forum and pointing out that Platyna is no where near the whole source of problems here.

I really doubt a thread started by Platyna, called...

I'm not saying that this thread has deserved anyone a medal of achievement. But what has earned Platyna the respect I hold for her is the work she did do. I believe her work should not be diminished or downplayed. I don't think it's right for the TMWC members to say how terrible she was to just throw people out, with no acknowledgement of their value to the team and for the TMWC to say they are doing things the right way, but then do the opposite as the very first official act. To be blunt, I think it makes the TMWC look like a bunch of hypocrites and it really lends to the whole power hungry image I'm sure would rather be cast off. If I was ostracized in the same way tomorrow, I would hope that commending my achievements would be important to at least someone.

What do you have to lose, anyway, besides a pointless argument? Love her or hate her, she did something important, and at the end of the day, every one of us has benefited from it.

...

I did see that previously. I was thinking more of something positive to remember her by. An in-game (obtainable) item, a wiki article, or something to commemorate all of the good times we had.

I know things will never be well again, but I think that an effort should be made for Platyna, and for every person from now on who dedicates even half as much as her. If they don't want it, fine. That's their choice. But, I think the least we as a community can do is try to make things the best they can possibly be and to celebrate our accomplishments together, instead of dwelling on our arguments.

[edit]Misc. grammer cleanups, etc.[/edit]

[meway]

Platyna was the host, not the owner. The server has always belonged to the project.

Platyna disputes this, I believe. But most importantly, if the server belongs to the project, then who does the project belong to? You can say GPL licencees, but that is apart from the right to exile admins you no longer like, so the real question is who controls the project? You can say TMWC, but who decided that, before the TMWC was formed? It certainly wasn't the GHP, because Platyna ran that, and she certainly didn't agree with it.

Platyna has done far worse than Crush.

ElvenProgrammer also the owner of the DNS "www.themanaworld.org" and founder of our project decided it was best we move or he would have never changed the IP (host) the DNS is currently pointing to. These issues may concern you or disturb you in some ways but complaints and nagging, which btw is whats going on here, will not effect the future of the project. I've been banned, kicked, and abused before but I'm still here. The reason I am is because I believe they are doing fine now compared to how they were handling things before. This is probably directly related to the stress caused by not having an active host when we were having technical problems. During the last year or so platyna hasn't really been as prompt as we would like. GHP, Developers, Contributors and I won't speak for everyone but many people would agree about this. She was quick to try and moderate things without knowing all the details first. We had to put certain blocks on items because she gave them out before they were even suppose to be in the game causing a problems because they were not fairly balanced correctly yet. She insisted that specific items could only be for her. (crown, valentine dress). So why would we stay with somebody that hurt moderation, disrupted development and upset our players? We had to remove those items from the game. She also removed items from the game because she felt that people didn't deserve them when they were gifted to said people. ie: blackdon gave sugarcorgit (yes I'm using an actual event) the "crown" and it was removed from game. Black don is the original pixel artist of it. The item was a legal item but was still removed. I certainly don't want someone like this as a host. I'm sorry if you disagree these are just the facts and my personal opinions.

[o11c]

My point is Platyna was not willfully malicious with the data,

There is such thing as "gross negligence". I don't consider myself sufficiently-educated with the relevant tools to be certain, but others who do have expressed their opinion that it was, and given the sheer number of failures it had, I'm inclined to believe them.

I honestly would have had a very similar reaction. I don't think her being exceptionally angry is unusual.

Sure, but would have have put yourself in the position in the first place? Not only did she do things that we had a problem with, but she aggressively closed many discussions with "I'm always right, and anyone who ever disagrees with me is wrong".

And while anger is to be expected ... I would say that Platyna's reactions have been rather extreme for just anger. Some of her posts have been completely irrational, even *after* the initial surprise (since, among other things, her email on Platinum was apparently broken).

True, but if all of the "bad" people went to Platinum, there ought to be a lot of bad things happening there.

I never said all the "bad" people went to Platinum.

I'm just making a casual observation about the tone of the public forum and pointing out that Platyna is no where near the whole source of problems here.

There certainly are bumps from many sides. But Platyna is the *only* one who has shown no willingness to compromise, and we could not negotiate while she held her position as host.

But what has earned Platyna the respect I hold for her is the work she did do. I believe her work should not be diminished or downplayed.

Have you never heard that one evil deed can erase many good? I can't find the reference I'm thinking of ... I'm not sure if I was thinking. I've .

But in any case, I *do* challenge that she has done anything worth. I was surprised how easy it was to move the server to another host - and there are *lots* of hosts on the internet (you can argue about the quality of host, but you'll lose). The only thing worth mentioning is the fact that she did continuing hosting through at least one DDoS several years ago, long before I came here.

--

In case you can't tell, I hold my opinions in complete and unconditional opposition to Platyna. I was literally about to resign from the project because of her when the opporunity came, so when the opportunity knocked, I seized it and did not let go (I've had to learn quite a bit about system maintenance ...).

My departure post would have been epic, if I had ever written it ... even in just the time I've been with this project (when Platyna was somewhat distant) I was distressed by the number of people being driven away. And even in the public forums, there are lots more if you go back a few years farther. In the private forums, there are more. The resignation of MasterKenobi as GM is particularly compelling.

Once I realized the common pattern, I was planning on linking as much evidence as I could. I still weep for those who may never return ... how much better would this project have been with them?

[Jaxad0127]

In case you can't tell, I hold my opinions in complete and unconditional opposition to Platyna. I was literally about to resign from the project because of her when the opporunity came, so when the opportunity knocked, I seized it and did not let go (I've had to learn quite a bit about system maintenance ...).

My departure post would have been epic, if I had ever written it ... even in just the time I've been with this project (when Platyna was somewhat distant) I was distressed by the number of people being driven away. And even in the public forums, there are lots more if you go back a few years farther. In the private forums, there are more. The resignation of MasterKenobi as GM is particularly compelling.

Once I realized the common pattern, I was planning on linking as much evidence as I could. I still weep for those who may never return ... how much better would this project have been with them?

I can't count the number of people I heard who left (first- and second-hand) because of her attitude/methods. Lots of good people, too. I think part of the TMW/Mana split was because of her (it moved a core part of the development away from her). As someone who was deep in the project for several years, I'll confirm that we seriously contemplated moving from Platinum and Platyna numerous times. After moving IRC to Platinum (a 'network' far inferior to Freenode), we kept a few hidden channels on Freenode so we could discuss freely without fear of her eavesdropping. I wouldn't be surprised if a large portion of the (quite numerous) forks of TMW were due, at least in part, to Platyna and her methods.

[Crush]

I can't count the number of people I heard who left (first- and second-hand) because of her attitude/methods. Lots of good people, too. I think part of the TMW/Mana split was because of her (it moved a core part of the development away from her). As someone who was deep in the project for several years, I'll confirm that we seriously contemplated moving from Platinum and Platyna numerous times.

You are right - one reason for splitting the programming from the content development back then was because Bjorn and Platyna couldn't work with each other. (See a pattern here? Well, programmers are from Venus and sysadmins are from Mars)

After moving IRC to Platinum (a 'network' far inferior to Freenode)

Another interesting story, by the way. The reason for leaving Freenode was because Platyna got into an argument with a Freenode admin, got banned from the network and then insisted that we move to her server.

This was a hard hit for TMWs reputation as a project in the open source community. Lots of open source projects are networking on freenodes IRC servers, and leaving freenode got us closed out of the loop.

[Platyna]

The way I see it, the data on the Platinum server was destroyed exclusively to hurt Platyna.

We've been over this dozens of times. We did not delete anything from Platinum; Platyna only thought that at first because she didn't actually look at the filesystem, and it has been continued to be spread by her partisans even after she acknowledged her error.
In fact, Platyna is running a full copy of the forums and server and pulling all the updates that we make, as well as bribing players with free items to play on her version of the server.
Last I checked, she's also hitting our update server, which is rather impolite in the website world, but since nobody plays on her server, it's not much of a resource drain ...

[OnymA]

Oh bribe ? I would love to be bribed

[GARRETTtheGREAT]

I'm not disputing what happened and what did not happen. I wasn't involved in most of the things being referenced and it's useless for me to get into an argument knowing nothing about it. The things I know enough about and feel are worth discussion, I've discussed, but I don't think a mutual agreement is a realistic goal.

That being said, I don't see anything else productive happening with me discussing it to death. Hopefully this has provided some insight. Maybe it hasn't, but I feel strongly compelled to try at least.

I'll be around, lurking, as usual.