Why GM's are not needed

[MasterKenobi]

I'll let you answer that when all is said and done.

Fair enough

MK

[Delasia]

But Amun, if you automated everything, you would have no one to abuse and accuse. You would have no one to talk to because all would have you on ignore...(something GMs cannot do), and in the end no scapegoat for your own misinterruptions and inadequacies.
Your trolling days would be over......

Are you sure thats what you want..?/

Seems this was misinterrupted, judging by the preceding scripts.

However, this was meant as more of a "if you are a troll", not Amun in particular.

Amun apologies for singling you out....was not intended to be that way

[Galadriel]

*sigh*

I personally vote for the removal of any visible GMs. I'm sure GMs serve a purpose... like announcing up-and-coming weddings, etc. a quick @wgm please announce this: "blah" works just fine.

However, i want to say that i have personally had the unpleasant experience of having a GM warp into a very private conversation to threaten me. Because it was a 'conversation', i was not alone. My friend sat and heard the entire thing. (He had some comments to say ... but i'll let him do the commenting on his own.)

I was threatened because a certain "player" has been speaking to their close buddies about my so-called bad behaviour. And i've been telling my side of the story. And certain GMs have heard this "player's" story and have shown that player favoritism. and anyone saying anything against their "favored one", as this GM said, is not tolerated.

The questions arise:

1. Since when are GMs called to defend someone? I have read the rules. I have followed the rules. I have encouraged the rules. And I don't recall this rule: "Thou shalt speak kindly of the GMs' favored ones, or risk GM wrath". This is role play, right? RPG means "role playing game". and if two players disagree with each other, are GMs mandated to defend their "teacher's pet".

2. What if this "player" is in fact a skilled scammer? A scammer who works far beyond the typical "Give me your nick/pass and i'll level you to 99, shower you in rares and billions of GPs"? Favoritism is going to bite them in the ass if this turns out to be the case.

I responded to the GM who warped his way into our private conversation. What was remarkable was that -- when i presented my side of the story, this GM appeared to be somewhat surprised that about this missing info. In other words: it seemed he'd believed this "player's" tales about me, but had never really heard my side, and was taking action in spite of the lack of complete information.

Every story between two players has two sides. I personally heard some nasty things about a certain player. When i sought her out I got her side of the story. And I was grateful i did. I no longer see her as a "monster".

Shame! Shame on any of you who hear tales about me and believe them without seeking me out first! And most of all: Shame on you GMs who show favoritism to any players! Some players are eager to share their hurts. I have mine too! Some devs and players know of my personal losses. But i don't run around making sure you all feel sorry for me.

conclusion
I think the game should have GMs who are seen and not heard: GMs who keep their noses out of people's personal business; who show no favoritism.

And: to answer any questions that will arise... no, i did not grab a whole bunch of screenshots. However, i have not named any names. I will lean not on screenshots that are quickly accused of being doctored. I will lean on my reputation in this game.

[Ceros]

I heard adamix mention that and I agree it would be annoying as crap. But could you not do something more simple? Such as: if player x is stationary in <location> for x amount of minutes <send botcheck> which would be as simple as an automated message asking them to move in x amount of time or they will be kicked / banned the same as gm's currently do.

Yeah, this might work for most CAPSLOCK bandits (and you know, all those warriors who stack would probably love this too). I'm sure even the most retarded botter could code a bot that could moves every 30 seconds. If your concept of a botter is someone who just stands there and swings a sword, you are sorely mistaken. Bots that stand in one location for just around the amount of drop protection and then walk off a grid around the spot they were standing is pretty easy. Automation tools that record keystrokes and replay them are super easy, like AutoIt or Autohotkey.

FFS.

Rules without enforcement aren't rules, they're suggestions. If human beings were able to police themselves and be nice there wouldn't be a need for police. After logging into Hurnscald for 20 minutes today, I hope the people behind this experiment are laughing their ass off reading the logs.

[Katze]

I personally vote for the removal of any visible GMs. I'm sure GMs serve a purpose... like announcing up-and-coming weddings, etc. a quick @wgm please announce this: "blah" works just fine.

Galadriel, I think you have misunderstood something about GMs. It is just some nice extra we have been doing announcements for player events. The actual duty of a GM is to enforce the rules. And along with that comes warning players because of some abuse towards other players. I don't know about your case and I can't tell whether or not it was justified some GM came to you to warn you, but that indeed belongs to a GM's duties.

[Galadriel]

I personally vote for the removal of any visible GMs. I'm sure GMs serve a purpose... like announcing up-and-coming weddings, etc. a quick @wgm please announce this: "blah" works just fine.

Galadriel, I think you have misunderstood something about GMs. It is just some nice extra we have been doing announcements for player events. The actual duty of a GM is to enforce the rules. And along with that comes warning players because of some abuse towards other players. I don't know about your case and I can't tell whether or not it was justified some GM came to you to warn you, but that indeed belongs to a GM's duties.

Let me clarify:

I believe that some of the current GMs are pretty cool. I will state that I prefer MasterKenobi's style of GM work: he shows up invisible and does his work quietly. He's on, but we seldom see him. He doesn't park in town to demonstrate to the world that he's a GM. I believe MK treats the work he does as a responsibility, not as a way to lord it over others.

I believe the game needs GMs, Katze. They do serve a purpose. But, as Salmondine has already stated:

I think it is a good idea to try it.
I like our GM's too.
But most of MY reasons for wanting GM's in the first place are fixed.
Drop stealing is fixed.
auto - ban takes care of spammers.
This leaves botting- well who cares, this server will be abandoned or wiped as promised.
Who cares if you are lvl 99 on a stagnant soon to be abandoned server.
Sheesh we are pre-alpha, and will always be until we are replaced.

There will always be obnoxious, rude and insulting players, that is what ignore is for!

Of the rules enforced: my observation is that few or none get banned for speaking other languages; few get banned for spamming; and few get banned for abusive behaviour.

As already stated publicly:
1. MasterKenobi for head GM
2. Keep the GMs on a short leash
3. GMs should do their work invisibly (what i meant when i said: "I personally vote for the removal of any visible GMs.")

[Jaxad0127]

He doesn't park in town to demonstrate to the world that he's a GM. I believe MK treats the work he does as a responsibility, not as a way to lord it over others.

Which ones do so regularly while wearing their GM outfits?

[Black Don]

He doesn't park in town to demonstrate to the world that he's a GM. I believe MK treats the work he does as a responsibility, not as a way to lord it over others.

Which ones do so regularly while wearing their GM outfits?

I think that can lead to an ugly gray area.
I will give a hypothetical example of a GM in town in normal clothes and gets involved in some drama. The GM then could put on the robe and do something in the heat of the moment. I'm not saying this has happened but would not like to ever see it happen were a GM is provoking people into abusive actions. I don't believe a GM should get into a on duty and off duty mind sets because first they should always be acting in a manner that should set an example to the rest of the community. Second since a GM is expected to "jump into action" the moment of any rule breaking they are always on duty when in the game. If any GM doesn't want to have to always be on then maybe they are not the right people for the job.

[Dark Lord]

Another thing to add to the list:

Ê¡It's not fair that people get power and others don't

[Katze]

huh? Being a GM is not about "having power". The only thing it is is exhausting.

Galadriel: when I sat in town it was only so people know I'm there and so I can talk to people. I am still human. And as you may have realised: I haven't changed that behaviour since I am currently not a GM.

[Hello=)]

They only add a sense of corruption amongst the majority of the community. Which is warranted.

That's seems to be true, at least partially. If you'll read GM logs (or simply watch what happens in-game) you will soon figure out that GMs are (at least sometimes) using more special commands than really necessary to perform their tasks. Probably they doing this for convenience, etc. But that could reasonably annoy usual players. In my own opinition, GMs may exist, but players should never see special commands usage unless there is something terribly wrong happens and necessary evil have to be applied. Otherwise GMs are doomed to feel a numbers of hateful eyes and read unpleasant comments. IMHO, good staff is not visible until something goes really wrong. Invisible - in sense of administrative power usage. It is ok if GM wants to be usual player, but then GM do not have to use administrative commands for own convenience or to favor one players over others, etc. Or this will annoy other players (they will feel like they're second-rate citizens, hence all these hateful comments, etc).

Let's say, for example, I do not like when GM appears out of nowhere while there was nothing wrong, etc. That's not a proper way to use administrative commands, IMHO. Because it makes other people to feel uncomfortable.

Most gm tasks could be automated through server side scripting. (including the banning / kicking of bots)

Really? Maybe you can publish your algorithm allowing to do it, then? Which will not cause false positives (ban of innocent people is unacceptable) but will ban even advanced and tricky bots who crafted to behave a bit more like a real player and say, keeps XP growth rate not very high to avoid simple and non-intrusive methods of detection? I bet your algo will be used not just here in TMW if you will manage to invent such algo, he-he .

Monthly events and announcements could be hosted and done by game event organisers which would only need limited permissions.

This will cause same issue as with GMs. People will dislike "privileged" players for same reasons they dislike GMs, I guess . Why someone should have more rights than someone else? I can at least sometimes find answer on this question for GMs, but unable to find it for usual players, even events organisers. What if some Average Joe wants to organise event? Should Joe to be allowed to announce it? Or he should feel like a second rate citizen?

Most people are able to deal with their own issues or problems within the game just as efficient as a gm.

Somewhat true, that's why I think GMs should be less visible (in terms of administrative commands usage). But what you will do if someone let's say found bug (or whatever) which allows other player to effectively stop you (or what worse, many people at once) from normal playing? Will you wait for days or weeks until this could be fixed (not each and every issue can be fixed quickly) or attacker satisfied with effect and gives up? If you think this can't happen, well, this means you just did not noticed some things.

[Ceros]

+1 t3st3r

I understand the need for GMs to be both hidden and in plain sight. It is similar to why there are plain clothes police officers and uniformed officers, marked cars and unmarked cars. While a GM who remained hidden 24/7, only appearing to ban a botter and constantly on the prowl would be nice, it is pretty unrealistic. No one wants to spend their time on this server unmet and unnoticed. The GM burn out rate would be extremely high.

At the same time, to continue the cop analogy, you don't want to have that one cop who goes around all the time in uniform, waving their badge around to get 'cop discounts', who tries to get phone numbers by pulling over hot chicks and letting them off with a warning. However, at the same time, a cop who always walks a beat and is easily approachable is fosters a sense of security and serves the community. But it is a very fine line.

Too much pot beating and flag waving around here for me - most of you people doing the complaining haven't ever experienced abusive admins. More like teen angst and a Duck the man attitude.

[Galadriel]

I understand the need for GMs to be both hidden and in plain sight. It is similar to why there are plain clothes police officers and uniformed officers, marked cars and unmarked cars. While a GM who remained hidden 24/7, only appearing to ban a botter and constantly on the prowl would be nice, it is pretty unrealistic. No one wants to spend their time on this server unmet and unnoticed. The GM burn out rate would be extremely high.

Well, again. This is a testing time, right? And as stated: MasterKenobi shows up in game and does his rounds invisibly. (I'd love it if he posted a thread or post describing a day in his TMW duties.) True, he does become visable and speaks to others. (I'm not suggesting he's forbidden to do so.) But much of his work is done invisibly. From recent discussions with him (now that he's more visible) he does not appear to be too "burned out". But that's more for him to say.

At the same time, to continue the cop analogy, you don't want to have that one cop who goes around all the time in uniform, waving their badge around to get 'cop discounts', who tries to get phone numbers by pulling over hot chicks and letting them off with a warning. However, at the same time, a cop who always walks a beat and is easily approachable is fosters a sense of security and serves the community. But it is a very fine line.

+1 Ceros

[Edit] By the way, i realize this topic is "why GMs are not needed". So in a way, i'm a bit off topic. but i think the roles of GMs should be seriously reviewed before restoring them to the game.

[wolf_pack]

Oh...this is really quite sad. *sigh* Why are there so many anti-GM's? I mean really. They we're voted to be GM's by the players right? Maybe not all the players that are here now, but at one point in time. There is no applying to be a GM here someone somewhere at one point in time must have thought had nominated each and every GM and other's agreed. Now...however much longer later players want to argue? As said before they are human. Everyone makes mistakes, gets frustrated, acts for the moment. They're here more than for the occasional Global Messages. Look at the GM logs, they stay busy doing they're job. No one will be happy when it's them the GM's are "after them" of course. But when you have a problem most GM's are more than happy to help you. This topic is overdone. It seems to be the same people over and over again that have to bash GM's. They're getting a well deserved break, maybe you guys should wait for them to come back before deciding they're not needed. The game still has a long way to go, I think we need all the help we can get.

[Katze]

wolf_pack,

It is NOT true that we (Ex-) GMs were elected by the players! Only CapitanAwesome had a kind of election period. And some of us weren't even chosen by all of the other GMs or devs. So I think people have all right to complain about us when we act in a way they don't like!!!